The Bible is not the word of God

[DrProctopus]

A bunch of people who believed that God was talking to them wrote down what they believed God was saying.

The more relevant or successful scriptures were kept and eventually composed into the OT.

Something similar happend after Jesus did his thing, and the NT was produced.


Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

[joer]

Sure, the Bible has some good stuff in it and the Vedas have some good stuff in them and the Qu'ran has some good stuff in it and the Enuma Elish has some good stuff in it. Heck, most books have some good stuff in them, but it's not rational to base your life on a book because it has some "good stuff".
People need to take the good stuff out of the Bible, discard all the worthless crap, and get a life of their own.

Now your talking Brother. Live the truth not a book! Go for the good stuff.

That’s three people in agreement on something. Do we get special points for that?

Then Scrotum wrote:

OK, sorry for being a spiler here, but i would like to ask you guys then (Yeah, YOU, agreeing with eachother), Could you state some examples of WHAT IS GOOD WITH THE BIBLE that you cant find anywhere else?
AND
That is in no way particular to the Holy Bible, so can you please refer to something that is unique? Else you could just folllow the Qu´ran. What makes your Bible so special?

McCulloch, wrote following Scrotum's lead:

Now see if you can list some that are exclusively the property of the Bible.

Then Cephus wrote in response to Scrotum:

Sorry, who ever said that the good stuff couldn't be found anywhere else? Nothing says it has to be exclusive to be good. Try again.

Now that was so true. Aristarkos and I were agreeing with Cephus that the truth could be found in many sources even fiction. We weren't saying it was exclusive to the Bible. But Scrotum was acting like we were claiming everything in the Bible was exclusively ONLY in he Bible. And that wasn't our point at all. My point to McCulluch and Scrotum are you going to discard the Bible and all the truths and morals in contains because you've found inconsistancies, errors or something mentioned there that was also mentioned in other sources? That's like throwing out the baby with the bath water! If you dig through a pile of mud and finally find a diamond. Are you going to show others the diamond you found or the pile of useless mud you sifted through to find the diamond? I'd want to share the thing of value that I had found not all the useless stuff I sifted through to find it. Why are you so hell-bent on pointed out the useless stuff you've found in the Bible? Do you feel you have a responsiblty to destroy it?

And then Cephus introduced the Myth idea:

I never said anyone should follow it, just that it had some good ideas in it. Lots of books have good ideas. They also have a lot of fetid dog crap. The Bible is a book of mythology, nothing more, nothing less, but even books of mythology can have some good points.

chachynga wrote in response to McCulluch:

everything in it is unique to Gods Instructions to His people alone

cad0830 wrote in response to McCulluch:

“Exactly how many guiebooks regarding faith in paticular were written before the Bible? One might want to argue that the Code of Hammurabi was one, but I am not certain of that. The Code, to me, seems to be a list of laws, whereas the Old Testament (particularly the Torah) was a book written not only to show regulations, but also to show the nature of God. That in itself explains a small portion of the specialness of the Bible.”

Easyrider wrote

You guys used to say King David was a myth too, until they found the Tel Dan tablets.

Lotan wrote in response to Easy:

Who exactly do you mean by "You guys"? I never said anything like that.others followed the Myth idea.

Wuntext wrote following the “Is David historically correct” tangent,:

I'd like to point out here that a mention of "House of David" in no way proves the existence of such a person

Does it really matter if King David is a myth or not? As Cephus pointed out and others can easily see, it's the "good stuff" contained within the myth that's important. I'll share some things of value I've found in the Bible. I've also found truth all around me in everything and everywhere.

[joer]

You can do God’s Will here on earth if you know what it is. This is for anybody who can’t figure out what God want’s them to do either Day by Day or over time.

After praying to God for some time. I don’t know if it was six months or a couple of years but somewhere in that time frame. God gave me an answer. "My Son taught you what My will is by what He taught and the WAY he lived his life. If you want to know what my will is for you, pay attention to what he taught and live how he lived. I also showed humankind what My Will is many times through the prophets and Human kind continually forgets what I taught them. Look in the Bible and follow my Son’s teachings and you can live your life according to MY Will."

I felt so stupid that I never thought of that before. Here I am earnestly praying to God to show me his will and It’s been right in front of me my whole life and I haven’t seen it. Then I realize He’s been showing us how to live by his will for thousands of years and we still don’t get it yet.
I was thinking He was going to tell me “Do this today” or “Do that today”. Here I am like an idiot waiting for GOD to tell what to do to live according to his Will Day by Day. Then I come to realize He’s been telling my whole life even unto my ancestors before I was born, and I still didn’t get it, until after I prayed for him to show me How I can do His Will here on Earth as it is done in Heaven. Man I feel like Homer Simpson when he goes “Dope, Dope, Dope, Dope”.

Now I know what I’m supposed to do. I have to keep praying to Him to give me the Strength and will power to do it. Because now that I know it, I’m such a weakling and creature of habit, I STILL AM HAVING A HARD TIME DOING SUCH A SIMPLE THING.

Well here are a few things I’ve found in the bible where I found that GOD did tell me how to live according to his will. Now all I have to do is “JUST DO IT”.

The Bible says it plain and clear in the parts that Jesus shed light upon as being important for us to grasp as God’s message to us through him. He let the chaff in the bible get winnowed out by his words and lessons. He told us

Lu:17:21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That’s why we don’t need to look any further than what’s in our heart guided by the Holy Spirit to determine what is of the Kingdom and what is not.

I could say, “We are told by Jesus (before interpreting) Athiests are Blessed.” And to support my claim I could use The Beatudes:
M't:5:4: Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
M't:5:6: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
M't:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.And say, “Atheists are all these things therefor they are Blessed.” Actually the ones I know are like that, and even though they don’t think of themselves as blessed, I do.

So why don’t we get back to the meaningful things in the Bible? In Matthew Jesus told us: (edited of course, by King James Version editors here)
M't:22:36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? M't:22:37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. M't:22:38: This is the first and great commandment. M't:22:39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. M't:22:40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
So everything Hangs on those two things. To do God’s Will you only have to measure what your doing by those two tests. If you look at the ten commandments the first 3 honor God, the last 7 relate to loving your neighbor the way God wants you to.
Now God has told us these things over and over again for thousands of years. And we just about killed the messenger almost every time and reverted back to our sick ways. Even today Atheists who don’t even believe in God follow his will and commandments better than many Christians just based on their secular moral standards.

I believe mostof the following are King James and some Douay Rheim’s versions.

God’s Will is:

Lk:6:37-38
37 Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven.
38 Give: and it shall be given to you: good measure and pressed down and shaken together and running over shall they give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you shall mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.

Lk:10:25-28
25 And behold a certain lawyer stood up, tempting him and saying, Master, what must I do to possess eternal life?
26 But he said to him: What is written in the law? How readest thou?
27 He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said to him: Thou hast answered right. This do: and thou shalt live.

Lk:9:46-48
46 And there entered a thought into them, which of them should be greater.
47 But Jesus seeing the thoughts of their hearts, took a child and set him by him,
48 And said to them: Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me; and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me. For he that is the lesser among you all, he is the greater.

Mk:10:43-44
43 But it is not so among you: but whosoever will be greater shall be your minister.
44 And whosoever will be first among you shall be the servant of all.

Mk:12:28-34
28 And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all.
29 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said to him: Well, Master, thou hast said in truth that there is one God and there is no other besides him.
33 And that he should be loved with the whole heart and with the whole understanding and with the whole soul and with the whole strength. And to love one's neighbour as one's self is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices.
34 And Jesus seeing that he had answered wisely, said to him: Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jn:13:31-35
31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said: Now is the Son of man glorified; and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God also will glorify him in himself: and immediately will he glorify him.
33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You shall seek me. And as I said to the Jews: Whither I go you cannot come; so I say to you now.
34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Jn:6:40
40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day.

Dt:5:6-21
6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight.
8 Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth.
9 Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing.
12 Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
14 The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ass, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself.
15 Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.
16 Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 And thou shalt not steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife: nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Dt:6:4-9
4 Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.
5 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength.
6 And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart:
7 And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising.
8 And thou shalt bind them as a sign on thy hand, and they shall be and shall move between thy eyes.
9 And thou shalt write them in the entry, and on the doors of thy house.

Dt:7:9
9 And thou shalt know that the Lord thy God, he is a strong and faithful God, keeping his covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments, unto a thousand generations:

Dt:10:18-19
18 He doth judgment to the fatherless and the widow, loveth the stranger, and giveth him food and raiment.
19 And do you therefore love strangers, because you also were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Dt:11:18-20
18 Lay up these words in your hearts and minds, and hang them for a sign on your hands, and place them between your eyes.
19 Teach your children that they meditate on them, when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest on the way, and when thou liest down and risest up.
20 Thou shalt write them upon the posts and the doors of thy house:

Dt:30:6
6 The Lord thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed: that thou mayst love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, that thou mayst live.

Dt:30:10-16
10 Yet so if thou hear the voice of the Lord thy God, and keep his precepts and ceremonies, which are written in this law: and return to the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.
11 This commandment, that I command thee this day is not above thee, nor far off from thee:
12 Nor is it in heaven, that thou shouldst say: Which of us can go up to heaven to bring it unto us, and we may hear and fulfil it in work?
13 Nor is it beyond the sea: that thou mayst excuse thyself, and say: Which of us can cross the sea, and bring it unto us: that we may hear, and do that which is commanded?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.
15 Consider that I have set before thee this day life and good, and on the other hand death and evil:
16 That thou mayst love the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways, and keep his commandments and ceremonies and judgments, and bless thee in the land, which thou shalt go in to possess.

Jos:22:5
5 Yet so that you observe attentively, and in work fulfil the commandment and the law which Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you: that you love the Lord your God, and walk in all his ways, and keep all his commandments, and cleave to him, and serve him with all your heart, and with all your soul. (DRV)

Is:61: 1-3
1 The spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord hath anointed me: he hath sent me to preach to the meek, to heal the contrite of heart, and to preach a release to the captives, and deliverance to them that are shut up.
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God: to comfort all that mourn:
3 To appoint to the mourners of Sion, and to give them a crown for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, a garment of praise for the spirit of grief: and they shall be called in it the mighty ones of justice, the planting of the Lord to glorify him.

Is:61: 8
8 For I am the Lord that love judgment, and hate robbery in a holocaust: and I will make their work in truth, and I will make a perpetual covenant with them.

Is:61: 10
10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, and my soul shall be joyful in my God: for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation: and with the robe of justice he hath covered me, as a bridegroom decked with a crown, and as a bride adorned with her jewels.

Mi:6: 8
8 I will shew thee, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requireth of thee: Verily to do judgment, and to love mercy, and to walk solicitous with thy God.
(DRV)

Zec:8: 16-17
16 These then are the things, which you shall do: Speak ye truth every one to his neighbour; judge ye truth and judgment of peace in your gates.
17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his friend: and love not a false oath: for all these are the things that I hate, saith the Lord.

Am:5:14-15
14 Seek ye good, and not evil, that you may live: and the Lord the God of hosts will be with you, as you have said.
15 Hate evil, and love good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be the Lord the God of hosts may have mercy on the remnant of Joseph.

What do you think my friends? Is this what God wants us to do or not? Those who believe, please pray to the Holy Spirit on it! And see what you think!

And remember I'm not saying these truths of God are only in the Bible. They are actually self-evident all around us in a myriad of media and sources.

Thank You ALL, Joer

[wuntext]

Does it really matter if King David is a myth or not?

Obviously not to you joer. But seems to matter to certain Christians. Would you say it did not matter if Jesus was a myth, as long as you had the 'good stuff'?
Wouldn't you like the opportunity to take a godless infidel such as myself to Nazareth and say "Jesus must have walked down this road!" Or, "Look! That's the reconstruction of the synagogue Jesus taught in, built on the foundations of the original."

[Lotan]

Lotan wrote in response to Easy:

Who exactly do you mean by "You guys"? I never said anything like that.others followed the Myth idea.

WTF?

I never wrote "others followed the Myth idea", nor did anyone else, as far as I can see!

Why would you purposely misquote me?
......................................................................................................

Am I being over critical, or is there anyone else out there who doesn't think christian websites are the best place to go for unbiased information?

Hi wuntext, I feel your pain.

I'd take her claims a bit more seriously if she left her bible at home.

Me too. From the second article that Easyrider posted...

"Israeli archeologist Eilat Mazar claims to have unearthed the palace of biblical King David"

And yet she is nowhere directly quoted as making this claim.

"Also lending support to the conclusion that this was David’s palace is that up to this point there have been no finds of idolatrous statuettes or ritual crematoria which are found in contemporary Phoenician and Philistine settlements."

This is funny considering how many of David's descendants are reported in the Bible to have followed idolatrous practice.

"Some scholars suggest that King David and Solomon were nothing more than petty tribal chieftains who ruled over an area comprising little more than a few scattered rural clans. One renowned archeologist has even hypothesized that Jerusalem during David’s time was nothing more than a “typical hill country village”

That would be Finkelstein and co. I tend to think that David's kingdom was slightly better than this, but not much. A really fun book about David is King David: A Biography by Steven L. McKenzie. I would recommend it.

"If the massive structure found by Ms. Mazar does prove to be 10th century, Seymour Gitin, director of the Jerusalem-based Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, says it will “demolish the view of the minimalists” who dismiss the biblical accounts of history and religion (ibid.)."

"Even if this structure does not turn out to be the palace, it could still be a revolutionary archeological find. It is certainly a major construction from the early Israelite period in Jerusalem, which negates the views of critics who claim there is no evidence of a major Israelite presence during this time. The Bible’s description of a great, unified and influential monarchy of David and Solomon is also reinforced."

Yes, it's fun to speculate, but it's a bit premature based on so little data. As Hani Nur el-Din, a Palestinian professor of archaeology at Al Quds University, says in a more balanced report of the find...

"They have a button, and they want to make a suit out of it."

Obviously the date that the structure was built is crucial to any identification with historical David...

"Unfortunately, Amihai Mazar said, she found no floor. It is clear the building was constructed after the pottery underneath it, but less clear exactly how much later."

[McCulloch]

Does it really matter if King David is a myth or not? As Cephus pointed out and others can easily see, it's the "good stuff" contained within the myth that's important. I'll share some things of value I've found in the Bible. I've also found truth all around me in everything and everywhere.

I am willing to take the "good stuff" contained within the Bible. I am unwilling to attribute the writing of the Bible to an omnipotent deity.

[Cephus]

Wouldn't you like the opportunity to take a godless infidel such as myself to Nazareth and say "Jesus must have walked down this road!" Or, "Look! That's the reconstruction of the synagogue Jesus taught in, built on the foundations of the original."

If I could charge them for it, sure. Bilking clueless fundies is fun, that's why so many evangelists do it on a regular basis. But my prayer handkerchief! Only $19.99!

[Easyrider]

"Some scholars suggest that King David and Solomon were nothing more than petty tribal chieftains who ruled over an area comprising little more than a few scattered rural clans. One renowned archeologist has even hypothesized that Jerusalem during David’s time was nothing more than a “typical hill country village”

That would be Finkelstein and co. I tend to think that David's kingdom was slightly better than this, but not much.

Ah yes... the discredited minimalist Finkelstein. You love to trot out these liberal revisionists, don't you?

Who Destroyed Megiddo? Was It David or Shishak?

http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_BAR/bswbba2906f1.html

http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/solomon.html

C14 dating affirms Scripture/Scripture affirms C14 dating!

Deep in the ruins of a Hebrew town sacked nearly 3,000 years ago by an Egyptian Pharaoh, scientists say they have discovered new evidence for the real-life existence of the Bible's legendary kingdoms of David and Solomon.

The evidence refutes recent claims by other researchers who insist that the biblical monarchs were merely mythic characters, created by scholars and scribes of antiquity who made up the tales long after the events to buttress their own morality lessons.

The debate, however, is not likely to subside, for archaeology is a field notable for its lengthy quarrels among partisans, however scientific they may be.

The latest evidence comes from Israeli and Dutch archaeologists and physicists after seven years of digging at a historic site called Tel Rehov. The site is in the Jordan valley of Israel, where successive settlements rose and fell over the centuries.

Using highly sophisticated techniques for establishing dates through the decay rate of radioactive carbon, the scientists have pinned down the time of a disputed moment in history, recorded in the Bible, when a Pharaoh now known as Shoshenq I invaded Jerusalem.

As the book of Chronicles relates in the Old Testament, Shoshenq (the Bible called him Shishak) came "with twelve hundred chariots and threescore thousand horsemen" and plundered Israel's capital, as well as such towns and fortresses as Rehov, Megiddo and Hazor.

The Pharaoh later listed those conquests on a monument in the temple of Amun at Karnak, where the Egyptian city of Luxor now stands.

The new timetable places Shoshenq's rampage and looting at Rehov in the 10th century rather than the 9th, a highly significant difference. It sets the date at about 925 B.C., some five years after Solomon was said to have died, and some 80 years earlier than other archaeologists maintain.

Those scholars, known in the world of archaeology as "minimalists," insist that both David and Solomon were little more than tribal chieftains, and certainly not the mighty monarchs of the Bible.

A report on the new evidence appears today in the journal Science by Hendrik Bruins, a desert researcher at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel, Johannes van der Plicht of the Center for Isotope Research at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, and Amihai Mazar of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, the principal archaeologist at Tel Rehov.

In a telephone interview, Mazar said that one specific "layer of destruction" at the site yielded a harvest of charred grain seeds and olive pits that enabled his colleagues to date them with an unusually high level of precision. The dates of both earlier and later layers showed clearly how the successive layers of occupation could be determined from the 12th through the 9th centuries B.C., he said.

"They provide a precise archaeological anchor for the united monarchies of the time of David and Solomon," Mazar said. "The pottery we found there also tells us that the conquest dates from the same period as Meggido, when its mighty gates and walls and temples were also destroyed by Shoshenq's armies."

More than 40 years ago the late Yigael Yadin, who won fame as an army officer during Israel's war for independence, turned to archaeology and after excavating the imposing ruins at Megiddo maintained that they were in fact destroyed during the so-called Solomonic period.

Recently, however, a group of archaeologists led by Israel Finkelstein of Tel Aviv University working at Megiddo has insisted that the so-called Solomon's gate there dates from a much later time -- perhaps 100 or even 200 years after Solomon.

Finkelstein read a copy of the Mazar report that was sent him by e-mail. After replying that Mazar "is a fine scholar," he insisted that "there are many problems with his archaeological data" and that the samples of material used for the radiocarbon dating are at best questionable.
In the past, Finkelstein has accused Mazar of harboring a "sentimental, somewhat romantic approach to the archaeology of the Iron Age," according to an earlier account in Science.

On Thursday, however, one of the leaders in the archaeology of Israel, Professor Lawrence E. Stager, who is director of Harvard University's Semitic Museum, dismissed the claims of Finkelstein and the other archaeologists who share his views.

"Mazar and his colleagues have now put another nail in the coffin of Finkelstein's theories," Stager said. "There's no question that Rehov and the other cities that Shoshenq conquered were indeed there at the time of Solomon.

"We don't need to rely any more only on the Bible or on Shoshenq's inscriptions at Karnak to establish that Solomon and his kingdom really existed, because we now have the superb evidence of the radiocarbon dates."
http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/solomon.html

[Lotan]

Ah yes... the discredited minimalist Finkelstein. You love to trot out these liberal revisionists, don't you?

"You love to trot out these liberal revisionists, don't you?"

Are you five?
If you've paid attention to any of our earlier exchanges you'll see that I prefer to follow the middle road as much as possible. I know that Finkelstein takes things a little too far (you'll notice that I don't entirely agree with him) but I'm not aware that he has been "discredited".
In any case, I didn't "trot" him out, I just put a name to the "Some scholars" mentioned in the Trumpet article that you cited.

[Easyrider]

Are you five?

No, are you?

If you've paid attention to any of our earlier exchanges you'll see that I prefer to follow the middle road as much as possible.

Your "middle of the road" is pretty far to the left from what I've seen. If you were middle of the road you wouldn't be trotting out Finkelstein for a run around the arena.

[wuntext]

But my prayer handkerchief! Only $19.99!

$19.99? That's around £10.00 in real money! For that kind of outlay I'd want a pair of sandal's stamped "Property of Yeshua ben Joseph."