Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

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snappyanswer
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Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

Post #1

Post by snappyanswer »

How does the issue about the descendants of Abraham get settled in the world of religion as based on who Abraham tried to sacrifice.

In the Bible Ishmael was to be ONE nation. Genesis 21
The Birth of Isaac
1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac [a] to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
6 Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me." 7 And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age."

Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away
8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."




Why do Muslims claim to be descedants of Ishmael?

Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?

If Muslims teach and believe that Abraham actually sacrificed Ishmael but a lamb was miraculaously substituted, how did this different account get communicated to the earlier Muslims since the Biblical account of Abraham sacrificing Isaac was written down centuries before Mohammad was born?

From the Bible, an account believed by both Jews and Christians:

Genesis 22
The Offering of Isaac
1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."


Muslims teach that it was not Isaac but Ishmael that Abraham was told to sacrifice:

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_2 ... _islam.htm

God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his beloved son Ishmael. He told about his vision to his son saying: “O, Son! I see in vision that I slay thee.” (37:102) Ishmael, an obedient and dutiful son replied: “O, Father! Act as thou hast been bidden (by the Lord) and thou wilt, if God willeth, find me of the patient one” (37:102). When Abraham laid down his son Ishmael and tied his hands and legs lest the boy should struggle while being slain and blind folded himself with a piece of cloth, passed the knife across, cutting the throat. When he uncovered his eyes he found a lamb laid slain and Ishmael safe and sound standing nearby. Abraham got worried. He thought his sacrifice was not accepted by God. But God has substituted lamb for Ishmael. The Quran says: “O, Abraham! Of course thou hast faithfully fulfilled the dream, thou art of the truthful ones, but verily it is an open test, we have substituted it with a greater sacrifice. We have transferred it to later generations.” (37:105-108).


Also from: http://www.submission.org/suras/sura37.html

Sura - 37 The Arrangers.(Al-Saffat)
Order Of Revelation 56, Verses: 182

37:102] When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, GOD willing, patient."*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*37:102 The Most Merciful never advocates evil (7:28). As with Job, Satan claimed that Abraham loved his son too much, and was permitted to put Abraham to that severe test.

[37:103] They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).

God Intervenes to Save Abraham and Ismail

[37:104] We called him: "O Abraham.

[37:105] "You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.

[37:106] That was an exacting test indeed.

[37:107] We ransomed (Ismail) by substituting an animal sacrifice.

[37:108] And we preserved his history for subsequent generations.

[37:109] Peace be upon Abraham.

[37:110] We thus reward the righteous.

[37:111] He is one of our believing servants.

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Joe Zuke
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Post #11

Post by Joe Zuke »

"Christians and Jews probably think that the sacrificing of Isaac is the true version because they believe that the Jewish scribe or rabbi who wrote it was telling the truth."


Telling the truth? I find that story absurd. Reach down within yourself and try to find a spot in your heart where you can truly believe that the creator of the universe; an entity that is supposed to truly love his children would stoop to trickery of that magnitude. It breaks my heart to think that millions of people believe that their "GOD" could be so manipulative. Is that love?

benmaarof
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Location: Malaysia

Post #12

Post by benmaarof »

Joe Zuke wrote:"Christians and Jews probably think that the sacrificing of Isaac is the true version because they believe that the Jewish scribe or rabbi who wrote it was telling the truth."


Telling the truth? I find that story absurd. Reach down within yourself and try to find a spot in your heart where you can truly believe that the creator of the universe; an entity that is supposed to truly love his children would stoop to trickery of that magnitude. It breaks my heart to think that millions of people believe that their "GOD" could be so manipulative. Is that love?
Did I said something incorrect? I said that Xtian and Jews believe the Biblical version is the truth while Muslims believe that the Quranic version is the truth. What is wrong with that?

Suzanne
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Posts: 287
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Re: Which child did Abraham attempt to sacrifice?

Post #13

Post by Suzanne »

snappyanswer wrote:How does the issue about the descendants of Abraham get settled in the world of religion as based on who Abraham tried to sacrifice.

In the Bible Ishmael was to be ONE nation. Genesis 21
The Birth of Isaac
1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him. 3 Abraham gave the name Isaac [a] to the son Sarah bore him. 4 When his son Isaac was eight days old, Abraham circumcised him, as God commanded him. 5 Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.
6 Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me." 7 And she added, "Who would have said to Abraham that Sarah would nurse children? Yet I have borne him a son in his old age."

Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away
8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast. 9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking, 10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son. 12 But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. 13 I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring."




Why do Muslims claim to be descedants of Ishmael?

Which child did Abraham try to sacrifice?

If Muslims teach and believe that Abraham actually sacrificed Ishmael but a lamb was miraculaously substituted, how did this different account get communicated to the earlier Muslims since the Biblical account of Abraham sacrificing Isaac was written down centuries before Mohammad was born?

From the Bible, an account believed by both Jews and Christians:

Genesis 22
The Offering of Isaac
1Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
2He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."


Muslims teach that it was not Isaac but Ishmael that Abraham was told to sacrifice:

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_2 ... _islam.htm

God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his beloved son Ishmael. He told about his vision to his son saying: “O, Son! I see in vision that I slay thee.” (37:102) Ishmael, an obedient and dutiful son replied: “O, Father! Act as thou hast been bidden (by the Lord) and thou wilt, if God willeth, find me of the patient one” (37:102). When Abraham laid down his son Ishmael and tied his hands and legs lest the boy should struggle while being slain and blind folded himself with a piece of cloth, passed the knife across, cutting the throat. When he uncovered his eyes he found a lamb laid slain and Ishmael safe and sound standing nearby. Abraham got worried. He thought his sacrifice was not accepted by God. But God has substituted lamb for Ishmael. The Quran says: “O, Abraham! Of course thou hast faithfully fulfilled the dream, thou art of the truthful ones, but verily it is an open test, we have substituted it with a greater sacrifice. We have transferred it to later generations.” (37:105-108).


Also from: http://www.submission.org/suras/sura37.html

Sura - 37 The Arrangers.(Al-Saffat)
Order Of Revelation 56, Verses: 182

37:102] When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, GOD willing, patient."*


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*37:102 The Most Merciful never advocates evil (7:28). As with Job, Satan claimed that Abraham loved his son too much, and was permitted to put Abraham to that severe test.

[37:103] They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).

God Intervenes to Save Abraham and Ismail

[37:104] We called him: "O Abraham.

[37:105] "You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.

[37:106] That was an exacting test indeed.

[37:107] We ransomed (Ismail) by substituting an animal sacrifice.

[37:108] And we preserved his history for subsequent generations.

[37:109] Peace be upon Abraham.

[37:110] We thus reward the righteous.

[37:111] He is one of our believing servants.



THE PROMISE from GOD TO ABRAHAM was TO HIS SEED THROUGH HIS WIFE SARAH.. THE FREE WOMAN. NOT the BOND WOMAN. OF HAGAR. HAGAR was the SLAVE BOND TO SARAH. AFTER WAITING on the LORDS TIMING AND NOT HAVING anything happen SHE SARAH Told ABRAHAM to GO INTO HER HANDMAIDEN.. THE EGYPTIAN.. THE BOND woman.. YET ISAAC born to SARAH WAS the PROMISED and HE WAS the YOUNGER SON. and THINK ABOUT CAIN AND ABEL. IT was CAIN THE OLDER THAT SLEW the YOUNGER SON ..ALL through the HISTORY OF the SONS EVEN up to ISAACS TWINS SONS ESAU AND JACOB the OLDER WAS GIVEN TO be a SLAVE TO the YOUNGER.. and EVEN DAVID THE King was the YOUNGEST OF ALL HIS BROTHERS. and HE BECAME THE KING. THEN YOU HAVE THE FINALE. JOHN THE BAPTIST the ONE coming in the wilderness TO MAKE the WAY OF THE LORD. HE being the OLDER JOHN the BAPTIST. to make the way for the YOUNGER THE PROPHECIED COMING MESSIAH. THE FINAL ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE TO SAVE the world and US ... MY mother had an OLDER SON that LIVED 3 days and died. THEN SHE had a DAUGHTER the OLDER BUT The FIRST HAD DIED. so the DAUGHTER became the SECOND yet the older. then a Son I don't know what this has to do with anything at all.

POINT IS ACCORDING TO GOD and SCRIPTURE. it is always the YOUNGER SON that was the RULER over the OLDER.. and IT was that way RIGHT FROM THE FIRST TWO SONS. IF SIN OF ADAM HAD not come then CAIN would have nopt BEEN JEALOUS and MURDERED HIS BROTHER and what do we have this very day. BROTHERS AGAINST BROTHER IN the MIDDLE EAST. ISRAEL, WHOM IS OF AND NAMED JACOB the YOUNGER SON OF WHO THAT PROMISED SEED OF ABRAHAM. THEN YOU HAVE ISHMAEL AND HIS LINAGE THAT GOD ALSO gave LAND TO> and THEN WE HAVE THE BLACK SHEEP YOU MIGHT SAY THE ONE THAT GOD HATED ESAU. the EDOMITE. BABYLONIA LAND.. AND TO THIS DAY THESE TWO JACOB =ISRAEL and ESAU = EDOMITE IRAN, IRAQ PLALISTINIANS HAMAS.. WANTING NOTHING MORE THEN JEWISH PEOPLE OF JACOB ISRAELIES PUSHED RIGHT INTO THE SEA AND DESTROYED> sorry... BUT GOD will never allow this . FOR JERUSALEM IS HIS. and ISRAEL AND THE TWELVE TRIBES ARE HIS.and so is the EGYPTTIAN EOPLE OF ISHAMAEL AND HAGARS OFFSPRING BY ABRAHAM .. IF THE EDOMITE AND ESAU DO NOT MAKE PEACE WITH ISRAEL?????? GOD will DESTROY THEM. SO I would suggest you pray FOR THE PEACE of JERUSALEM AND THE GOVERNING OFFICIALS THAT ARE working for peace in the Middle EAST BETWEEN THE HAMAS and ISRAEL!!!!!!!THE JEWISH PEOPLE.. INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING ABOUT how WE AMERICA THE ONLY REAL HOPE FOR PEACE ALONG WITH ISRAEL AND ENGLAND AND OTHER COUNTRIES THAT UNDERSTAND THIS WAR WE ARE IN. are DOING> WORKING FOR THAT PEACE. OR ELSE WE ALL SHALL PERISH BIG TIME!!!!!!! AND GUESS WHO WINS THE WAR????? GOD ALMIGHTY AND HIS PEOPLE .... THE SEED OF ABRAHAM the FATHER of not all nations BUT MANY .. BECAUSE ISLAM IS NOT
JUDEO /.CHRISTIAN.. it is ISLAM. AND ISLAM IS OF ESAU the HATED OF the LORD GOD HE HAD IT WRITTEN HIMSELF ... and YOU CAN READ ALL ABOUT IT in the HOLY BIBLE HIS BOOK HE HAS HAD written FOR ALL TO UNDERSTAND what is GOING TO HAPPEN and NO MAN WILL EVER TAKE THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND WIPE THEM OFF THE FACE OF THIS EARTH. THE ALMIGHTY GOD will never allow it . TO BAD more have no UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT A DIER SITUATION IS BREWING IN THE MIDDLE EAST for us all IF PEACE is not MADE between these two NATIONS PEOPLES., ISRAEL and ESAU.PEOPLE BETTER AWAKEN AND START PRAYING AS IT IS written INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING .. THE COMPLAINERS OF OLD ???? GOD opened the EARTH and they all FELL INTO the ABYSS> ANOTHER LESSON????????? that none believe not norr understand as a truth ...

DO I FEAR NO.. why?? because I know the end of the story.. WE WIN... WHETHER NOW or later GOD'S CHILDREN WIN!!!!!!!!! NOT SATANS... END OF STORY short sweet and to the point especially when you consider all the TIME that is in GOD'S HANDS HUH???????????we fight the wars when the BATTLE AFTER ALL, really is the LORDS ... AND GOD never LOOSES.. HIS BATTLES.. HE HAS won them all and HE will win this one also... PEACE will come.. IT's In the BOOK... ME I AM ALREADY THERE ALONG with others I have known . OH one more thing ISHMAEL AND ISACC were the BOND AND THE FREE PEOPLES. BUT YET SEED OF ABRAHM BUT IT IS THE PROMISE ISAAC,, NOW there no longer is BOND O NOR FREE JEW NOR GREEK BUT WHAT OF THE EDOMITE ESAU?????? THAT GOD HAS SAID HAD WRITTEN I HAVE HATED EASU BUT I HAVE LOVED JACOB.. AND ESAE WAS YET the SON OF WHOM THE PROMISED ISAAC, THAT ALSO THE YOUNGER WAS JACIOB and the OLDER ESAU THE ONE TO BE SLAVE TO THE YOUNGER. and to this day THAT OLDER HATES the YOUNGER BROTHER WELL GOD REALLY IS NOT ABOUT TO CHANGE G HIS MIND and FLIP THE COIN TO THE OLDER SON TWIN EITHER NOT AFTER ALL THIS JEWISH PEOPLE ARE STILL HERE SO IS AMERICA> ENGLAND AND WHO ELSE STANDS FOR PEACE FOR JERUSALEM surely not hamas I CAN TELL YOU THAT THEY WANT IT ALL AND NO JEWISH , AMERICAN, ENGLISH, OR ANY OTHER THAT STANDS WITH HER LEFT ALIVE> THEY WANT IT ALL THAT IS YOUR WARMONGERS THE TERRORIST OF ISLAM... THAT TEACHES THERE CHILDREN IN THEIR SCHOOLS ALL ARE INFIDELS OF SATAN when it is they THE TERRORIST A CHILDREN that DON'T WANT PEACE. that is why everytime peace is NEAR THEY GO AGAIN AND ruin it by BOMBING AGAIN ISRAEL OR somehwere else to STIR UP TROUBLE so PEACE FOR JEWISJ PEOPLE AND The MIDDLE EAST will not happen.. IF they GIVE UP THEY LOOS JERUSALEM TO .. we and many are fighting this day THESE TERRORIST that are all over this world... NOT just IN THE MIDDLE EAST. just waiting.. FOR their OPENING to attack . BETTER WATCH IRAN CLOSE..

Suzanne
Scholar
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:52 am

Post #14

Post by Suzanne »

benmaarof wrote:
Joe Zuke wrote:"Christians and Jews probably think that the sacrificing of Isaac is the true version because they believe that the Jewish scribe or rabbi who wrote it was telling the truth."


Telling the truth? I find that story absurd. Reach down within yourself and try to find a spot in your heart where you can truly believe that the creator of the universe; an entity that is supposed to truly love his children would stoop to trickery of that magnitude. It breaks my heart to think that millions of people believe that their "GOD" could be so manipulative. Is that love?
Did I said something incorrect? I said that Xtian and Jews believe the Biblical version is the truth while Muslims believe that the Quranic version is the truth. What is wrong with that?

AGAIN no blame for mankind HUH>>> nope SIN IS ALL GOD'S THE FATHERS CREATOR'S FAULT.. YA right... YOU do not want to take any responsibility either HUH???? THAT is TYPICAL of THOSE THAT HAVE not believed IN THE SCRIPTURE THAT tells all HISTORY... RIGHT from the beginning of TIME..

and GOD HAS NONE BECAUSE HIS TIME is NOT OURS.

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