The Bible is not the word of God

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DrProctopus
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The Bible is not the word of God

Post #1

Post by DrProctopus »

A bunch of people who believed that God was talking to them wrote down what they believed God was saying.

The more relevant or successful scriptures were kept and eventually composed into the OT.

Something similar happend after Jesus did his thing, and the NT was produced.


Nowhere in this process do I see any reason to believe that every single word in the Bible is the word of God. Why should I believe someone when they claim to speak for God?

So, the point of debate is this:

Is there actually any decent reason to believe that the Bible is 100% the word of God?

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McCulloch
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Post #71

Post by McCulloch »

SeekingTheTruth wrote:Topper, I had a list of prophecies from the Torah and I misplaced it. I'm supposed to be getting it on Monday. If I do, I will definitely accomplish my task.
Here is one of my favourites.
Ezekiel, in chapter 26 wrote:Now in the eleventh year, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Son of man, because Tyre has said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha, the gateway of the peoples is broken; it has opened to me. I shall be filled, now that she is laid waste,' therefore thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers; and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock. She will be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea, for I have spoken,' declares the Lord GOD, 'and she will become spoil for the nations. 'Also her daughters who are on the mainland will be slain by the sword, and they will know that I am the LORD.'"
For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army. He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword; and he will make siege walls against you, cast up a ramp against you and raise up a large shield against you. The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. Because of the multitude of his horses, the dust raised by them will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of cavalry and wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached. With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets He will slay your people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground. Also they will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water. So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more. I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the LORD have spoken," declares the Lord GOD.
Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre, "Shall not the coastlands shake at the sound of your fall when the wounded groan, when the slaughter occurs in your midst? Then all the princes of the sea will go down from their thrones, remove their robes and strip off their embroidered garments They will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment and be appalled at you. They will take up a lamentation over you and say to you,
'How you have perished, O inhabited one,
From the seas, O renowned city,
Which was mighty on the sea,
She and her inhabitants,
Who imposed her terror
On all her inhabitants!
Now the coastlands will tremble
On the day of your fall;
Yes, the coastlands which are by the sea
Will be terrified at your passing.'"
For thus says the Lord GOD, "When I make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you and the great waters cover you, then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living. I will bring terrors on you and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord GOD.
And yet, by the time that the New Testament was written, Tyre was an inhabited town.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Cephus
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Post #72

Post by Cephus »

SeekingTheTruth wrote:Cephur it seems you use logic in your statements.
Yeah, logic. Imagine that.
Please wait till monday when I am supposed to recieve a list of some (from the many ) prophecies.
And then we will shred them into little tiny pieces, just like we've done the last 47 times someone claimed that so-called prophecy ever proved anything. You can't possibly think you're the first person in history to try this tack, can you?

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Post #73

Post by SeekingTheTruth »

IT'S MONDAY

I can only get in one prophecy right now, maybe another later today, though.


The Torah says that there is only one animal that has split hooves and doesn't chew it's cud, (the pig). Deuteronomy 14:8.

If the Torah is not the word of G-d but was written by man, how can such a man know something like that. In the whole world and from all the animals that werent even discovered by then a "man" said "there is no other animal then a pig that has split hooves and does not chew it's cud". Only a being that's ALL-KNOWING can know something like that and put it in the Torah.

By the way, people look for an animal like this, people in the Jewish community who are trying to disprove the Torah. They never found nothing yet and they never will.

But, if they do, thats the END to Judaism.

If a man wrote the Torah then why would he make a statement like this. If it would be found not true, that would be the end the religion.

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Post #74

Post by SeekingTheTruth »

I have a fw=ew more minutes, so here's another one on the same concept.

Deuteronomy
6"Any animal that has split hooves and chews the cud may be eaten,

7but if the animal doesn't have both, it may not be eaten. So you may not eat the camel, the hare, or the rock badger. They chew the cud but do not have split hooves.

Same proof as last post.

I'll be suprised if someone can even try to disprove this.

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Lotan
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Post #75

Post by Lotan »

SeekingTheTruth wrote:The Torah says that there is only one animal that has split hooves and doesn't chew it's cud, (the pig). Deuteronomy 14:8.
Well, I didn't expect much, but I'm still underwhelmed.
Here is the text of Deuteronomy 14:8...

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase. Deut. 14:8

Please show us where it says that "there is only one animal that has split hooves and doesn't chew it's cud". Take as long as you like.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #76

Post by Cephus »

Lotan wrote:Please show us where it says that "there is only one animal that has split hooves and doesn't chew it's cud". Take as long as you like.
Expect a long wait.

It must be nice when you can just make things up and think people are going to do more than laugh at you.

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Lotan
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Post #77

Post by Lotan »

I think that this Torah verse is especially mind-boggling...

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. Genesis 9:3
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #78

Post by SeekingTheTruth »

And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase. Deut. 14:8

I don't know from what sources your'e getting your translations from but,
take the Torah in Hebrew ( we all agree thats how it was presented to the world ) and translate it word for word.

Deuteronomy 14:8

''and the pig, for it has a split hoof, but not the cud-it is impure to you;from their flesh you shall not eat and you shall not touch their carcasses.''

And also Deuteronomy 14:7 , Do you have a problem with that too?

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McCulloch
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Post #79

Post by McCulloch »

This is absolutely amazing. I am in awe. Incredible. Astounding.

How is it that someone who apparently takes his religion seriously interpret Deuteronomy chapter 14
The pig, because it divides the hoof but does not chew the cud, it is unclean for you. You shall not eat any of their flesh nor touch their carcasses.
as saying that
The Torah says that there is only one animal that has split hooves and doesn't chew it's cud, (the pig).
?

By the way, who are these people who are trying to disprove the Torah by trying to find another animal that does not chew the cud yet has a split hoof? Do they also have a reading comprehension problem? Who are the teachers or religious leaders in Judaism who are on record as saying that such a discovery would be "the END to Judaism"?

Also, the hippopotamus also has a cloven hoof and does not chew its cud, and it's not listed.

Kingdom: Animalia
  • Phylum: Chordata
    • Class: Mammalia
      • Order: Artiodactyla
        • SUBORDER Suiformes
          • Family: Hippopotamidae (hippopotamuses)
          • Family: Suidae (Swine)
          • Family: Tayassuidae (New World pig-like peccaries)
        • SUBORDER Tylopoda
          • Family: (Camelidae; camels, llamas)
        • SUBORDER Ruminantia
          • Family: Tragulidae (mouse deer)
          • Family: Moschidae (musk deer)
          • Family: Giraffidae (giraffe, okapi)
          • Family: Cervidae (deer)
          • Family: Antilocapridae (pronghorn)
          • Family: Bovidae (antelope, cattle, sheep, goats)
Now, in order to prevent the END of Judaism, we could interpret the word pig in Deuteronomy to include all of the suborder Suiformes. I don't know enough Hebrew to know if there would be any validity to that approach.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

DrProctopus
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Post #80

Post by DrProctopus »

Seeking the truth...

I know this might start to be a painful process for you, but please try to bear with it, even if you start to feel doubts. Doubt is a good thing, it is part of seeking truth.

The other non-torah-believers on this thread have pointed out to you how the verse you cited does not in any way indicate a prophecy or example of divine knowledge. Your verse simply does not say that there is only one animal with those characteristics.

The fact that you, and many others, point to this as an example of divine knowledge is just part of the process of rationalization. You want to believe, and so you find reasons to believe, even if you have to twist reality to do so.

And yes, despite your earlier claims that you would love to stop believing, the fact is that it you have much invested in your current belief system. Giving it up would be very painful, and involve admitting that you have been wrong. Blows to the ego, fear of the unknown, and many other painfull emotional processess.

But, you can do it. You can find within you the strength to overcome your preconceptions.

If you do overcome them, I would love to argue with you in favor of deism and reincarnation, so perhaps you can find a belief system that is full of hope, and also supported by some evidence.

Good luck

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