Objective morality based in reality

[cholland]

I have an objective basis for my own morality. It's grounded in reality.

Honestly I don't have a topic for debate (maybe move to Random Ramblings). I just wanted to hear more explanation of what Autodidact means by these two statements.

[cholland]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

objective: not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings

Right. It is an objective fact that being kind to other people makes [normal] human beings happy. There is more objective wisdom about how to live a virtuous and therefore happier life, but that is one basic one.

normal. Are these people that hold your views? And again, what your saying are your personal thoughts on this matter. ya gotta stop saying objective. All people disagree when it comes to philosophy so for you to declare that something is objective, you would have to appeal to something that transcends humanity.

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

It is an objective fact that people prefer being happy to being unhappy.

Please clarify the apparent contradiction.

And to back up a bit and explore the first statement: "I have an objective basis for my own morality." By basis, do you mean "the end of mankind is happiness."? If yes, can you please verify with evidence that this is true outside of your own mind? If not, please clarify what the actual basis is.

[Zetesis Apistia]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

Absolutely just means that its true all of the time for all people. Is there ever a time when this statement would be true, "some people prefer unhappiness to happiness"?

[cholland]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

Absolutely just means that its true all of the time for all people. Is there ever a time when this statement would be true, "some people prefer unhappiness to happiness"?

I know an ipad would make me happy, but not truly happy.

[Autodidact]

Right. It is an objective fact that being kind to other people makes [normal] human beings happy. There is more objective wisdom about how to live a virtuous and therefore happier life, but that is one basic one.

normal. Are these people that hold your views?

No, by "normal" I just mean no psychopaths. I don't think morality works very well with psychopaths.

And again, what your saying are your personal thoughts on this matter

. Of course, who else's?

ya gotta stop saying objective. All people disagree when it comes to philosophy so for you to declare that something is objective, you would have to appeal to something that transcends humanity.

Why transcends? Morality is for and about humanity. My statements are all objective facts. "Objective" does not mean absolute; quite the contrary. Maybe a word that would work better for you is "empirical." It's based on empirical facts.

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

It is an objective fact that people prefer being happy to being unhappy.

Please clarify the apparent contradiction.

what contradiction? People seek happiness. Also, people seek happiness.

And to back up a bit and explore the first statement: "I have an objective basis for my own morality." By basis, do you mean "the end of mankind is happiness."? If yes, can you please verify with evidence that this is true outside of your own mind? If not, please clarify what the actual basis is.

Yes, it's true outside my own mind that people want to be happy. If you poll the next 1000 people you meet, 999-1000 of them will tell you they want to be happy and avoid suffering.

Let's start with you: do you want to be happy? I do. So far, 100% of our sample wants to be happy.

As I say, it's not controversial, but considered self-evident in both western and eastern philosophies for the last 2000 years.

[Autodidact]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

Absolutely just means that its true all of the time for all people. Is there ever a time when this statement would be true, "some people prefer unhappiness to happiness"?

I don't know whether it's true all of the time for all people. I am quite sure it's true almost all of the time for almost all people, and that's how empiricism works. That's as good as science gets, and certainly objective.

Objective is not the same as absolute; quite the opposite. Empiricism is objective, and never absolute.

[Autodidact]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

Absolutely just means that its true all of the time for all people. Is there ever a time when this statement would be true, "some people prefer unhappiness to happiness"?

I know an ipad would make me happy, but not truly happy.

And your belief that happiness comes from ipads turns out to be objectively mistaken. Science (and the wisdom of the ages) has learned this much.

[Zetesis Apistia]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

Absolutely just means that its true all of the time for all people. Is there ever a time when this statement would be true, "some people prefer unhappiness to happiness"?

I don't know whether it's true all of the time for all people. I am quite sure it's true almost all of the time for almost all people, and that's how empiricism works. That's as good as science gets, and certainly objective.

Objective is not the same as absolute; quite the opposite. Empiricism is objective, and never absolute.

If some people prefer suffering to happiness is suffering always a bad thing?

[Autodidact]

YOu may be confusing objective with absolute. They are two different things. What I am saying is that we can base our moral decisions on objective facts, and this approach leads to personal and communal happiness.

So is it absolutely true that all people want to be happy? Do you even hear what you are saying?

I didn't say it's absolutely true that all people want to be happy, and I don't know what "absolutely" adds to "true". I think it's objectively true that in general, people wish to be happy. Do you disagree? I think it's a fair generalization about human beings that we seek happiness and to avoid suffering. I don't really think that's controversial.

How about you, do you seek happiness and to avoid suffering?

Absolutely just means that its true all of the time for all people. Is there ever a time when this statement would be true, "some people prefer unhappiness to happiness"?

I don't know whether it's true all of the time for all people. I am quite sure it's true almost all of the time for almost all people, and that's how empiricism works. That's as good as science gets, and certainly objective.

Objective is not the same as absolute; quite the opposite. Empiricism is objective, and never absolute.

If some people prefer suffering to happiness is suffering always a bad thing?

I don't know that there really are people who prefer suffering to happiness. Have you ever met one? If you asked them why they like to suffer, wouldn't they answer because it makes them happy?

If someone prefers to be miserable than happy, and prefers suffering to joy, they would not benefit from this empirical, scientific approach to morality. Or rather, I guess they'd learn to do the opposite: seek fame, status and wealth, don't take good care of personal relationships, do what society expects of them, not what they love, lie, treat other people badly, and care for no one but themselves. That should make them good and miserable.

[Zetesis Apistia]

I don't know that there really are people who prefer suffering to happiness. Have you ever met one? If you asked them why they like to suffer, wouldn't they answer because it makes them happy?

Actually i have never met one. In fact i think you are making a fine argument for at least one absolute truth. That being that all people prefer happiness to unhappiness. I agree that this truth cannot be established as fact without interviewing every single person, but I think a survey of one hundred people might prove the point.

If someone prefers to be miserable than happy, and prefers suffering to joy, they would not benefit from this empirical, scientific approach to morality. Or rather, I guess they'd learn to do the opposite: seek fame, status and wealth, don't take good care of personal relationships, do what society expects of them, not what they love, lie, treat other people badly, and care for no one but themselves. That should make them good and miserable.

You just described the human race. Maybe that would explain the drug epidemic.

[cholland]

I know an ipad would make me happy, but not truly happy.

And your belief that happiness comes from ipads turns out to be objectively mistaken. Science (and the wisdom of the ages) has learned this much.

Is it possible that your belief that happiness comes from X would turn out to be objectively mistaken?