That doesn't make me wrong.Murad wrote: I believe you are mistaken,
I don't know where you studied divinity, but it must not have been from an orthodox Christian source:i've studied divinity and each person of the Trinity is a God in it's own respect,
Why not consult the Early Church Fathers:i will ask a Christian moderator to clarify to us both.
Athenagoras
For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit because the Son is intelligence, reason, wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it (A Plea for the Christians, 2:18 [A.D. 177]).
Hippolytus
A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine (Against the Heresy of One Noetus 8 [A.D. 200-210]).
1. Can the Sahih Hadiths attest to anyone else seeing the Angel?& let the double standards roll in. Unlike the Bible the Quran is supported by thousands of Sahih Hadiths; no one can verify the anonymous authors of the Bible besides what the Church Believes as "Tradition"
No? Therefore, then, they are simply more evidence that Muhammed CLAIMED to have seen an angel.
It is hearsay piled upon hearsay.
2. Do the Sahih Hadiths deny that Uthman burned the original Quran?
If not, then they attest to the fact that the best evidence was burned and a copy was thrust in its place in order to hide the fact that the original Quran was in such a disarray that no one could make heads or tails of it.
But we don't rely upon Isaiah alone. We have many prophets who actually performed miracles to confirm that they were sent by God.1. No one saw Isaiah being inspired by God, therefore no one can confirm that the Holy Spirit actually inspired Isaiah.
Lets start in the New Testament. Twelve people lived with Jesus. They witnessed His miracles and listened to His Gospel.& apply this to every other character in the Bible. You sure love applying double standards don't you?
Four contemporaries of Jesus, three of whom walked with Him, recorded His Gospel. The fourth testament was written by a man who interviewed eyewitnesses of the life and times of Jesus Christ.
Nothing in Islam can stand up to this type of evidence.
1. The people who wrote the Gospels were operating in secret. They were known by the community.Then throw out your Bible, unlike the Bible the authorship of the Quran is not anonymous & there is no "Church Tradition" involved.
2. That particular group was steeped in ancient TRADITIONS and kept them by word of mouth. People with this type of cultural background today have far better memories than the so called "literate" people of our culture.
3. People of that culture also used rhyme, rhythm, pictures and mnemonics to help them retain the traditions passed down by word.
4. Add to that the fact that the literate people of their community also wrote down the facts which had been witnessed by hundreds.
And you've got a pretty reliable source for evidence. Better than most which is provided in a court of law today. Except of course for video taped evidence.
It is recorded in Islamic history.Incorrect, he did not burn the "Original Quran", who told you that, your preacher?
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 509, p. 477; book 61
Narrated Zaid-bin-Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yama-ma had been killed (i.e. a number of the prophets companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said to me, "Umar has come to me and said: `Casualties were heavy among the Qurra of the Qur'an (ie those who knew the Qur'an by heart) on the day of the battle of Yama-ma, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra on other battle fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest that you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected'. I said to Umar, `How can you do something Allah's Apostle did not do?' Umar said, `By Allah, that is a good project'. Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest (persuaded me) for it and I began to realise the good idea which Umar had realised.
Bukhari: vol. 6, hadith 510, pp. 478-479; book 61
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)
AND WHAT HAPPENED TO HAFSA'S QURAN?
"'Marwan used to send courier to Hafsa - meaning, when he was governor of al-Madina on behalf of Mu`awiya - asking her for the folios from which the Qur'an had been copied [kutiba minha] but she would refuse to give them to him.' Salim continued: 'When Hafsa died and we returned from her burial, Marwan sent an imperative request to `Abd Allah ibn `Umar for those folios to be sent to him, whereupon `Abd Allah ibn `Umar sent them to him. Then Marwan gave an order so they were ripped up (fashuqqiqat). He said: 'I only did this because I feared that after the passing of time, some doubter might foster doubt with regard to those folios.'
"The wording in Abu `Ubayda's narration has: 'so they were torn up' (famuzziqat). Abu `Ubayd [sic] said: 'It is unheard of that Marwan tore up the folios except in this narration.' I say: Ibn Abi Dawud narrated it with a chain from Yunus ibn Yazid, from Ibn Shihab, in a similar wording which has:
"'When Marwan was governor of Madina he sent courier to Hafsa asking her for the folios but she refused him access to them.' He [Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri] said: 'Salim ibn `Abd Allah [ibn `Umar] narrated to me saying: "When Hafsa died..."' and he narrated it [as above] and said in it: 'So he had them ripped up and burnt' (fashaqqaqaha wa harraqaha).
"And this addition also came up in the narration of `Umara ibn Ghuzayya, also an abridged one, but he, also made it part of the narration of Zayd ibn Thabit who said in it: 'So he had it washed out thoroughly (faghassalaha ghaslan)'.... And all this can be reconciled by saying that this was done with all the folios - renting, them washing out, then burning - and it is possible that the word [harraqaha] be read 'kharraqaha' (he had them rent) so that he has them first torn up then washed out, and Allah knows best."
These Suhuf were of course the Mushaf of Abu Bakr (RA) kept by `Umar, then kept by his daughter Hafsa the Mother of the Believers, wAllahu a`lam.
http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/fiqha_e27.html
Thank you, thank you, thank you. The only Quran he allegedly kept was Hafsa's and it was destroyed also.He burnt interpolated Quran's
And ALL the other Quran's which were written by the friends of the Prophet were burned because they were considered INTERPOLATED.
in·ter·po·late (n-tûrp-lt)
v. in·ter·po·lat·ed, in·ter·po·lat·ing, in·ter·po·lates
v.tr.
1. To insert or introduce between other elements or parts.
2.
a. To insert (material) into a text.
b. To insert into a conversation. See Synonyms at introduce.
3. To change or falsify (a text) by introducing new or incorrect material.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Interpolated
The only way to prove Quranic preservation is to compare it to the originals. But ALL the originals were burned, or otherwise destroyed. Including Hafsa's.& requested the Original Manuscripts from Hafsa(r.a), which were the most authentic manuscripts in history, these were copied then multiplied & all other "Different" Qurans were destroyed. Proof of Quranic preservation.
And Hafsa's were also destroyed.The originals were not burnt, your assertion is illogical in itself & you have no proof, why would a disciple of the Prophet "Burn Originals"? He burnt forgeries that differentiated from the Original manuscripts of Hafsa, i would have done the same.
The differences are miniscule and do not affect any doctrines of orthodox Christianity.But no identical pair... So do you just pick which manuscripts suit your fancy?
You have no idea the volumes of evidence that we have for the Bible. I won't even mention the Traditions which are invaluable but you don't seem to understand their value.You also do know that only a tiny, tiny fraction of the Greek manuscripts we have today date before the Nicene Creed?
anuscripts)
Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26) 1st century 50-60 AD co-existant (?)
John Rylands (John) 90 AD 130 AD 40 years
Bodmer Papyrus II (John) 90 AD 150-200 AD 60-110 years
Chester Beatty Papyri (N.T.) 1st century 200 AD 150 years
Diatessaron by Tatian (Gospels) 1st century 200 AD 150 years
Codex Vaticanus (Bible) 1st century 325-350 AD 275-300 years
Codex Sinaiticus (Bible) 1st century 350 AD 300 years
Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) 1st century 400 AD 350 years
(Total New Testament manuscripts = 5,300 Greek MSS, 10,000 Latin Vulgates, 9,300 others = 24,000 copies)
(Total MSS compiled prior to 600 AD = 230)
....The time span for the biblical manuscript copies listed above are all within 350 years of the originals, some as early as 130-250 years and one even purporting to coexist with the original (i.e. the Magdalene Manuscript fragments of Matthew 26),....
BUT THERE'S MORE
We have other manuscript evidence for the New Testament as well:
(3) Versions or Translations:
Besides the 24,000 manuscripts we have more than 15,000 existing copies of the various versions written in the Latin and Syriac (Christian Aramaic), some of which were written as early as 150 A.D., such as the Syriac Peshitta (150-250 A.D.) (McDowell 1972:49; 1990:47).
(5) Early Church Father's Letters:
But possibly the greatest attestation for the authority of our New Testament are the masses of quotations taken from its pages by the early church fathers. Dean Burgon in his research found in all 86,489 quotes from the early church fathers (McDowell 1990:47-48; 1991:52). In fact, there are 32,000 quotations from the New Testament found in writings from before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D. (Mcdowell Evidence, 1972:52). J. Harold Greenlee points out that the quotations of the scripture in the works of the early church writers are so extensive that the New Testament could virtually be reconstructed from them without the use of New Testament manuscripts.
Sir David Dalrymple sought to do this, and from the second and third century writings of the church fathers he found the entire New Testament quoted except for eleven verses (McDowell 1972:50-51; 1990:48)! Thus, we could throw the New Testament manuscripts away and still reconstruct it with the simple help of these letters. Some examples of these are (from McDowell's Evidence..., 1972 pg. 51):
Clement (30- 95 A.D.) quotes from various sections of the New Testament.
Ignatius (70-110 A.D.) knew the apostles and quoted directly from 15 of the 27 books.
Polycarp (70-156 A.D.) was a disciple of John and quoted from the New Testament.
Thus the manuscript evidence at our disposal today gives us over 24,000 manuscripts with which to corroborate our current New Testament. The earliest of these manuscripts have now been dated earlier than 60-70 A.D., so within the lifetime of the original writers, and with an outside possibility that they are the originals themselves. On top of that we have 15,000 early translations of the New Testament, and over 2,000 lectionaries. And finally we have scriptural quotations in the letters of the early Church fathers with which we could almost reproduce the New Testament if we so wished. This indeed is substantial manuscript evidence for the New Testament.
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm
Nope. We have much more than 24,000 manuscripts. The Bible can be reproduced from the commentaries of the Early Church Fathers, ALONE. Many times over.& most of these are in fragments. So what we have here are 24,000 different manuscripts written centuries after Jesus.
[You obviously have no knowledge of Islam, i do not see a learned man claiming that the "Original Quran" was burned; please tell me: WHAT/WHERE WAS THE ORIGINAL QURAN? WHO HAD IT?
See hadiths above.
The Gospels are eyewitness testimonies.Awsome, throw out your bible.
There are many false interpretations possible. But the Christian interpretation is the correct one.ALOT of things are "Hinted" in the OT, one could interpret the OT as a pagan polytheistic God deceiving the Jews; there are alot of false interpretations possible, the Trinity being the most famous.
That was the first missionary journey. Before the Descent of the Holy Spirit and their Great Commission to the World."Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
(Matthew 10:5)
Sincerely,
De Maria