The World as a Test

[Wootah]

Hi all,

My understanding of Islam is that Allah created the world to test humans and those that passed would go to paradise.

On that understanding here are my issues with that belief system.

* Allah created evil.

Implicit in the world as a test is that Allah created man to die, created diseases, suffering and all the rest to test us. I have seen a video of a Muslim apologist in response to the 'problem of evil' go so far as to say that there is no such thing as evil.

* Is the test fair?

* Since Allah places a seal on people's hearts how is that fair on a person still undergoing the test?


Thanks,

Wootah

[Murad]

So how many Muslims realistically pass the test this way? On estimate?

Im sure you dont expect an answer to a question like that.

I do want you to stick your neck out and claim a number but I don't mind if you don't.

Sorry i dont play God, your debating with the wrong person.

I think only the most idiotic person would actually, want a literal estimate on how many people in the world are 'Righteous'.

Please refrain from such questions in the future.

I think the only defensible answer is zero. I think it is a worse result if the answer is greater than zero. The reason why self righteousness is undesirable or a worse result is:

1) A belief in self-righteousness is essentially narcissism: That one is worthy of heaven must surely be the pinnacle of a 'delusion of grandeur'. I think it is a claim to being a God. As you said, in Islam no one dies for anyone. There is no need to consider others in Islam, only yourself and your own self-righteousness. Even doing good and helping others is merely point scoring as the morality is removed from the person. Finally if one can achieve the same level of righteousness as God and earn their way into Heaven then why not just ask God for the power he has denied you and make you omnipotent as well. It's where the train of thought leads.

Thanks for stating your opinion, i could make similar pointless comments about the christian atonement & blood.

Can you justify the bolded? If you want to attribute such ideas to Islam, you must prove it.

2) The reason why being self-righteous is concerning is because of what it means about God. It is like Groucho Marx said, "I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." For man to meet God's standard would mean that God's standard was low. If God's standard was low then there is no reason to believe that God is eternally good, eternally faithful, etc. If God's standard of justice was achievable by humans then we would be equal to God in every moral way and I think we both hope God has higher standards than that.

Thanks for justifying my point on why muslims 'repent' & seek 'forgiveness'.

Forgiving or 'Repentance' is not "letting someone pass a test". Since a sin is a "Transgression against God", God has the right to 'forgive & punish'. Do you agree?

A free willed being can do what it wishes. God is free willed and so can forgive or punish as he sees fit. However that does not make him just. How is God just if he forgives & punishes the same crime differently and more generally how is Allah just when he forgives and lets someone pass the test and doesn't forgive and fails someone else when they are much the same?

God is never unjust to his creation, the moment he is unjust, he ceases to be a God, and i've quoted repeatedly:

GOD does not inflict an atom's weight of injustice. On the contrary, He multiplies the reward manifold for the righteous work, and grants from Him a great recompense.
[Quran 4:40]

What your trying to say is that the mere fact God forgives one person(because he repents), that is unjust to another person that doesn't repent.
Well why on earth didn't the other person repent?
Since the dawn of the Abrahamic religions, from Abraham to Muhammad, all the prophets taught repentance & to turn back to God. Read leviticus in your Bible.

Whether you reject the messege of the prophets is not Gods problem:

There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them'
(Quran 35:24)

Repentance & Forgiveness is a Good thing, both our religions preach it:

That's not the question.

I answered your question, its funny how your diverting the comment because it debunks your whole arguement.

Your trying to argue something wrong that your own religion preaches so blatantly.
Funny.

Christianity is based on Jesus' crucifixtion being a mercy for mankind, so why do you apply a double standard to Islam?

Stay on topic Murad. Let's pretend Christianity is false for this topic.

But the short answer is that the punishment is paid for and so justice is maintained. Since it was only possible for God to do this (to pay for our sins) then it is an act of mercy that he chose to. Hurrah!

No thats injustice to the Jews that followed the Mosaic laws, they followed the law in every aspect to please God & to attain his mercy.
Then all of a sudden Christianity pops up saying God died for your sins, the Mosaic laws are useless.
Is that what YOU call JUSTICE? Funny. The hypocrisy is right in your face.

If Jesus really died for your sins, what on earth is the logic of him preaching repentance?

and REPENTANCE AND FORGIVENESS of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
(Luke 24:47)

They went out and preached that PEOPLE SHOULD REPENT.
(Mark 6:12)

Peter replied, "REPENT and be baptized, EVERY ONE OF YOU, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:38)


I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that THEY MUST TURN TO GOD IN REPENTANCE and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
(Acts 20:21)

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but EVERYONE to come to REPENTANCE.
(2 Peter 3:9)

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he COMMANDS all people EVERYWHERE to REPENT.
(Acts 17:30)

And to finish it off & to debunk all your claims, this is what Jesus Christ said:

I tell you, no! But unless you repent, YOU TOO WILL ALL PERISH.
(Luke 13:3)

[Wootah]

Thanks for stating your opinion, i could make similar pointless comments about the christian atonement & blood.

It's not opinion. It is one of two alternatives. You can offer another and we can discuss if it is valid. You haven't shown why my two alternatives are invalid.

Why isn't the idea that one can earn their way into heaven not the definition of narcissism? Why can't you see that?

Can you justify the bolded? If you want to attribute such ideas to Islam, you must prove it.

The test, all tests measure performance of some kind. A morality test, tests morality. So if Allah gives you a pass in his test then he is saying you pass the moral test. So the only difference would be that Allah has more power than you.

Thanks for justifying my point on why muslims 'repent' & seek 'forgiveness'.

The issue isn't repentance or forgiveness other than to the extent that it can do nothing because to forgive would be unjust and God is not unjust.

God is never unjust to his creation, the moment he is unjust, he ceases to be a God, and i've quoted repeatedly: GOD does not inflict an atom's weight of injustice. On the contrary, He multiplies the reward manifold for the righteous work, and grants from Him a great recompense.
[Quran 4:40]

You are using that quote as a premise with no justification other than it is in the Koran. This topic is questioning the validity of the claim that Allah is just so you cannot use the notion that Allah is just as a premise.

What your trying to say is that the mere fact God forgives one person(because he repents), that is unjust to another person that doesn't repent.
Well why on earth didn't the other person repent?
Since the dawn of the Abrahamic religions, from Abraham to Muhammad, all the prophets taught repentance & to turn back to God. Read leviticus in your Bible.

Repentance doesn't undo the sin. From Abraham until Jesus people were saved by faith in God and from Jesus until now we are still saved by faith in God and the actual in reality payment for our sins was made by Jesus. It is still faith in God, only now our faith in God is distinct and known and it is faith in Jesus by which we are saved.

No thats injustice to the Jews that followed the Mosaic laws, they followed the law in every aspect to please God & to attain his mercy.
Then all of a sudden Christianity pops up saying God died for your sins, the Mosaic laws are useless.Is that what YOU call JUSTICE? Funny. The hypocrisy is right in your face.

The Jews were saved by faith in God.
No one is claiming the law is useless.
And again why not focus on the topic? For this topic I'll agree Christianity is wrong.

If Jesus really died for your sins, what on earth is the logic of him preaching repentance?

I think repentance is acknowledging that we need God. That we fail all tests, we fail all laws and need God's mercy. Your argument is this.
- The world is a test
- We fail that test and repent
- God shows mercy
- But by showing mercy God is being unjust.
Now you have a view of God that is that God is unjust.

And to finish it off & to debunk all your claims, this is what Jesus Christ said:
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, YOU TOO WILL ALL PERISH.
(Luke 13:3)

I understand that you repent, I repent. I would even go so far to say that you are just like the NT Jews who are saved by their faith in God except unlike them you are aware of how God saved mankind you should respond specifically to it. You are specifically rejecting Jesus's sacrifice.

But again focus on Islam and the theology of the world as a test. Try to ignore bringing in Christianity or Judaism into the discussion please.

To summarise my reply. How is Allah just when by showing mercy to a criminal is unjust?