Grand Canyon

[Sender]

Ok, this is my first topic starter. You have probably beat this to death, if so, maybe the other newbies would like to join in. Thoughts?

[jwu]

The rocks were mud at the time of the flood.

That's one of the key points.
If they were mud, then how could those hundreds of metres high vertical walls form? Mud that is soft enough to account for that much erosion in that short time couldn't possibly have sustained the weight of the mass on top of it, it would have collapsed to angular flanks - as those seen at the much smaller Mt St Helens canyon.

Furthermore, are you saying that all the strata of the grand canyon was laid down by the flood? If not, could you identify the strata where the flood sediment begins and where it ends?

[Sender]

chimp,what do you mean in your last post in the other thread I started? Please clarify "serious debater".

[Jose]

A while back, I posted a bit of a discussion on this topic in the old Grand Canyon thread. Why don't you browse through it, and see what you think.

There's also an interesting puzzle about the dinosaur (and other) footprints in the canyon. It would be good to keep these in mind when thinking up an explanation for the canyon.

I will go look if there isn't a ton of posts. The footprints were made when the ground was flat. When the earth rose and the water rushed in, those footprints looks like dinosauers walked up the wall, but was actually made again while that ground was flat.

Ah. The link I provided was to a single post. There's lots of other stuff in that thread, but start with that one post.

As for the footprints, you have in mind an inaccurate image. The footprints don't go "up the wall." They are in horizontal strata. The trouble is, they are in strata that are covered by lots and lots of other strata. If the flood killed the animals, and the flood deposited the sediments, and the canyon wasn't carved until the flood drained away, then there can't possibly be footprints in strata that are near, but not at, the top of the canyon. The animals were dead by the time the strata were deposited, and the strata weren't exposed until after the flood water went down the drain in the ocean.

[Nyril]

The footprints were made when the ground was flat. When the earth rose and the water rushed in, those footprints looks like dinosauers walked up the wall, but was actually made again while that ground was flat.

As for the footprints, you have in mind an inaccurate image. The footprints don't go "up the wall."

He's confused, there are footprints that go up the side of a mountain and he thought we were talking about that instead of this. As it happens, that particular point made the post of the month.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/aug98.html

> According to the article I read, the prints are on the side of a mountain
> at inclines up to 70 degrees. That is real close to vertical.
> I would like to see a creationist explain that!

Spider-rex, Spider-rex
Does whatever he likes, I guess
Climbs the hill, goes up high
Ascends cliffs, just like a fly
Look out! Here comes the Spider-rex

He's fast and strong, and what's even more
He's a-hankering for some Torosaur
He leaves prints in the odd place
Like a vertical mountain face
Hey there, there goes the Spider-rex

After a few days of rain
And the Ark's out to sea
Spider-rex drowns in pain
Noah forgot him you see

Spider-rex, Spider-rex
Mountain climbing Spider-rex
He's extinct, he's no more
Just like all the dinosaurs

To him, Noah's a really big jerk
Because he's as dead as Jim Kirk
Fossilized Spider-rex!

[Sender]

The footprints were made when the ground was flat. When the earth rose and the water rushed in, those footprints looks like dinosauers walked up the wall, but was actually made again while that ground was flat.

As for the footprints, you have in mind an inaccurate image. The footprints don't go "up the wall."

He's confused, there are footprints that go up the side of a mountain and he thought we were talking about that instead of this. As it happens, that particular point made the post of the month.
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/aug98.html

> According to the article I read, the prints are on the side of a mountain
> at inclines up to 70 degrees. That is real close to vertical.
> I would like to see a creationist explain that!

Spider-rex, Spider-rex
Does whatever he likes, I guess
Climbs the hill, goes up high
Ascends cliffs, just like a fly
Look out! Here comes the Spider-rex

He's fast and strong, and what's even more
He's a-hankering for some Torosaur
He leaves prints in the odd place
Like a vertical mountain face
Hey there, there goes the Spider-rex

After a few days of rain
And the Ark's out to sea
Spider-rex drowns in pain
Noah forgot him you see

Spider-rex, Spider-rex
Mountain climbing Spider-rex
He's extinct, he's no more
Just like all the dinosaurs

To him, Noah's a really big jerk
Because he's as dead as Jim Kirk
Fossilized Spider-rex!

...and as ficticious as Jim Kirk. Do you know you are going to be "dead" allot longer than you are going to be alive? Better prepare for that.

[Chimp]

chimp,what do you mean in your last post in the other thread I started? Please clarify "serious debater".

I was inviting people not to pick apart what I said in my moment of
personal disclosure.

Not a slam on anyone. Don't worry, Upnorthfan, you'll know if I'm slamming
you

[Sender]

chimp,what do you mean in your last post in the other thread I started? Please clarify "serious debater".

I was inviting people not to pick apart what I said in my moment of
personal disclosure.

Not a slam on anyone. Don't worry, Upnorthfan, you'll know if I'm slamming
you

And will find I am like an old snapping turlte, I won't let go til I get my amswer

[Lotan]

And will find I am like an old snapping turlte, I won't let go til I get my amswer

Gosh! Me too!

Please provide the quote from page 5 of Allyn and Bacon General Science 1989 that will show conclusively that kids are taught that the peppered moth is an example of evolution? I'd hate to think that you're saying things that you can't back up with evidence.

[The Happy Humanist]

Do you know you are going to be "dead" allot longer than you are going to be alive? Better prepare for that.

Now there's a good debating tactic. If you can't beat 'em on the facts, scare the "hell" out of them!

[Sender]

Do you know you are going to be "dead" allot longer than you are going to be alive? Better prepare for that.

Now there's a good debating tactic. If you can't beat 'em on the facts, scare the "hell" out of them!

If the truth scares you, what am I to do, not say it? George Washington died in 1799, he is still dead. Galileo died when?, he is still dead. Everyone you can think of who died is still dead. Why would that scare you? I would hope it would make you prepare for it. Do you realize that if you don't believe in God, or Jesus, or heaven and hell, it doesn't matter, because they still exist dispite ones lack of belief in them? See Christians know where we came from and where we are going, there is a peace in that. Athiest can only guess where they came from, and have no where to go when they die. They will go to hell, but they won't find that out til they get there.