Polygamy

[Angel]

I just wanted to broadcast to everyone that the TLC channel will have a new Reality Tv show on a polygamous family. The name of the show is Sister Wives and it starts tonight (sept. 26, 2010). I think the couple and their kids are Mormons but they don't act or dress like those in Mormon sects. They look and act like the average family and even seem outgoing which may be one reason why TLC decided to host them on a show.

Here's YouTube video promo of the show:



About the show from TLC's website:
http://tlc.discovery.com/tv/sister-wives/

I hope this show can stir some debate and reach wide audiences to one day soon have legislators legalize polygamy or at least take away the 'criminal' status of it. There's also a Usergroup on this forum called ProPolygamy for anyone who wants to join.

[Kuan]

I dont think their mormon, its not part of the main branch of "mormonism" anymore. I am pretty sure that they are FLDS or a branch off the main one.

I have no problem with polygamy personally as long as its practiced correctly, respectively, and is between consenting adults.

[Zzyzx]

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I dont think their mormon,

Most US polygamous activity is within Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints and its offshoots. That sect / cult broke away from mainline LDS in late 1800s when the main church disavowed polygamy (in relation to statehood for Utah). Final splintering evidently occurred in the 1930s when the polygamists were excommunicated. However, they retain much of the doctrine and the name of LDS, and they use the Book of Mormon as a basic text.

its not part of the main branch of "mormonism" anymore.
I am pretty sure that they are FLDS or a branch off the main one.

I agree. There is an adversarial relationship between LDS and FLDS, with the latter being far smaller (ten thousand vs. five million).

I have no problem with polygamy personally as long as its practiced correctly, respectively, and is between consenting adults.

I agree -- and add "informed consent" and "without coercion".

[Kuan]

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I agree -- and add "informed consent" and "without coercion".

Agreed, that should be in there.

[McCulloch]

I voted undecided. I worry about legal implications and about whether our society is ready for the complexities of these arrangements. Which spouse gets to be next-of-kin? If one partner leaves, are the remaining partner still married? In the case of one man and two women, would the women be considered spouses to each other? Or would we have to invent a new legal category of shared spouses? Are we only discussing polygamy or is polyandry on the table too? Who should have custody of the kids, in the case of a break-up? What if you don't know which husband is the father?

We have enough complexity with the current system of serial monogamy without opening up a whole new can of worms.

On the other hand, the libertarian in me says that so long as adult informed un-coerced consent is received, why should it be prohibited?

[Zzyzx]

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Having more than one wife seem like "a man's dream" (particularly the hormone-driven). However, sustaining a relationship with ONE mate is difficult enough -- and with more than one that becomes extremely stressful (and perhaps more like a nightmare than a dream).

Do not ask why I speak with uncommon conviction.

[Angel]

I voted undecided. I worry about legal implications and about whether our society is ready for the complexities of these arrangements. Which spouse gets to be next-of-kin? If one partner leaves, are the remaining partner still married? In the case of one man and two women, would the women be considered spouses to each other? Or would we have to invent a new legal category of shared spouses? Are we only discussing polygamy or is polyandry on the table too? Who should have custody of the kids, in the case of a break-up? What if you don't know which husband is the father?

All of your questions here does not speak for if anti-polygamy laws are Unconstitutional. The Supreme Court and other courts job are to enforce the Constitution and laws, it's not it's job to worry about how this or that will be paid for ,etc. Banning polygamy clearly violates "eqaul protection' under the law that should apply to all consenting adults in relationships when it causes no harm. If 'adult consensual polygamy' causes no harm, then why ban it - why make it a 'criminal' punishable act? It's up to legislators the Senators to write legislation to set forth how some of the rights involved in polygamy would work out once anti-polygamy laws are declared Unconstitutional.

We have enough complexity with the current system of serial monogamy without opening up a whole new can of worms.

I'm not going to say that any legislation written to accomodate polygamous families will be easy or perfect. We can start on a small scale at least, or at least take away the 'criminal' status from polygamy and allow polygamists to practice a common-law (non-licensed no government involved) form of polygamy or we can even start with polygamy civil unions which are similar to marital rights but don't guarantee full marital rights. We can also start on a state by state basis, rather than trying to deal with the issue on a national level.

On the other hand, the libertarian in me says that so long as adult informed un-coerced consent is received, why should it be prohibited?

Exactly my point. Some estimates mention that the US Constitution took months to write. Nationalized Healthcare took months as well although I think more time should've been spent on it. And these are all TOUGH legislation lawmaking issues that have been rigorously thought out, debated, revised and still continue to be amended/revised till this day. I don't how much more harder it would be for polygamy, especially if you start at the STATE level rather than a National level like gay marriage has.

[Zzyzx]

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Angel,

I agree with everything you have said here. Thank you for putting it so well.

One of your points, that issues should be decided at STATE level rather than federal level, is a major contention of mine. The Constitution very clearly delegates rights and responsibilities to states and individuals, and limits the federal government.

Through political maneuvering, Supreme Court decisions, and the "War of Northern Aggression" (as it is often known south of the Mason Dixon Line), federal power has usurped states' power. I consider this a very large blunder that has led the nation astray.

[Angel]

Thanks Zzyzx.

If the mainstream aren't ready to accept polygamy when will they be ready? Are they ready yet to accept gay marriage? It may take a practical (not necessarily in your face) approach to change the minds of some people. By that I mean when people see that this life causes relatively no harm, then maybe more will not object to it as much.

For those who don't know, the polygamous family on the Reality TV Show "Sister Wives" are being investigated by their local police department for Bigamy (since polygamy is illegal). The Utah Attorney General's office are still assessing if they will actually press charges and prosecute this polygamous family.

This was in the Salt Lake Tribune paper and on Cable News channels (CNN, etc.).
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50366 ... e.html.csp


However, the polygamous family (the Brown's) have hired a nationally renowned attorney and Consitutional law scholar, Jonathan Turley to represent them should charges be filed against them. Hmmm, are the Brown's family also planning a 'constutional challenge' to anti-polygamy laws (even if it's in their state only)? Will the police department and Utah prosecutors chicken out since polygamy ALONE is rarely prosecuted b/c it is hard to prosecute, esp. with a big shot attorney and legal scholar in the picture? We'll see!

Here's the link to the information on the Brown's hiring their attorney...
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/entertainm ... r.html.csp

[Zzyzx]

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Angel,

Much of the current opposition to polygamy is in response to the religious cult that is its main proponent. As you know (but some readers may not), my wife was raised in that cult and its “leader� (who is in prison for sex offenses against children) is her uncle.

I know, second-hand, the disastrous effects of the religio-sexual practices of the cult. What I say here is based upon interaction with her and her immediate family (most of whom left the cult around the time she did (almost thirty years ago). A brother and a sister are still cult members and are involved in polygamous marriages.

Whatever I present can be verified by Internet search for FLDS, polygamy, Warren Jeffs, El Dorado, TX, ex-polygamous, etc.

The cult is very secretive and even contact with family members is discouraged or disallowed. The “cult kids� from my wife’s family are not allowed to attend family reunions, for example, and are very limited in contact with their mother and in what they can say. The church DOES control their lives to that extent.

Interaction with “the world� (their term for all outside the cult) is severely limited. Children are taught that outsiders are “of the devil�, are their enemy, and are to be distrusted and feared. They are taught to lie about parentage and family relationships (if they are even known). My wife was told, in early years, that her biological father was “Uncle Bill�.

Cult beliefs include that a man must have a minimum of three wives to “attain the celestial kingdom� and that a woman can only get there by being “sealed� to a man who is going. Since women from the outside are NOT clamoring to get into the cult, this means that there is a perpetual surplus of young males. Roughly eight of ten (80%) or more of the young men must be eliminated from the cult so there are enough females for remaining males to have “enough� wives (without having a “bachelor corps�).

The surplus young men are “run off�, dumped, discouraged, or excommunicated during teen years. Many have difficulty dealing with society for lack of preparation. A search for “Lost Boys of the FLDS� provides abundant information. The “devout� who remain are beholden to church officials and can be excommunicated and banned from their families and community at any time. This is NOT overstatement.

Marriages are typically “arranged� by church officials. Courtship is/was not involved and was NOT a matter of choice. This may be changing somewhat since my wife’s escape thirty years ago. However, young women had no choice in who they would / will marry and bear children with.

Underage “marriages� were and are the norm (as evidence her uncle in prison). Women become the property of their husband.

Cult schooling is primarily religious indoctrination, and is not intended to provide children with skills useful in society, in gaining employment or in becoming contributing members of society.

With minimal contact with the overall society, members are typically naïve and gullible, particularly the women (who are deliberately kept ignorant). Those who leave the cult are NOT prepared to function in society – and it takes YEARS of struggle and deprogramming (preferably with professional help) to overcome the disastrous upbringing. It has taken my wife thirty years – and many or perhaps most cult escapees do not make the effort or seek help.