Islam

[canadianhorsefan]

Well, just want to see if anyone is interested why Islam is right.

canadianhorsefan

[Dilettante]

Magus Yanam wrote:

The scientists working on the Manhattan Project were mostly concerned with how the atom worked and how the energy it made when broken could be harnessed. The actual machinery and delivery systems used to create a nuclear fission explosion above a city were built by military contractors - businessmen, assisted by mechanics. These people didn't have to know the theory behind fission to actually make it work, just like assembly-line workers building a car or motor-company executives selling them don't need to know how a carburetor actually works in order to make a car run.

I hate to disagree with you here, Magus, but I think it is or should be common knowledge that science is not entirely neutral. Scientific research is funded by specific administrations or specific corporations with specific results in mind. Einstein's letter to the US President, if I don't remember wrong, did mention the military uses of atomic energy.
Magus Yanam wrote:

I might note that the only perceivable reason Christians aren't killing people in the name of Christianity today is because of the direction Europe took after the Thirty Years' War (1618-1648). That was the last war in which European Christians fought each other (or anyone else) in the name of God and religion (at least, on a formal level). The Treaty of Westphalia emphasised the sovereignty of the individual nation-state which took precedence over the sovereignty of the Church, whichever Church it happened to be (Lutheran, Reformed or Catholic).

Nowadays, we seem to be rescinding the Westphalian model, since Bush, like Reagan before him, shows a complete lack of regard for other nations' sovereignty (yet another reason I voted for Kerry). Since we seem to be regressing to a pre-Westphalian standard for nationhood and warfare, we may yet see (God forbid) Christians killing in the name of their religion again.

The Westphalian model did not prevent nation-states from making war against each other, and nationalism is just as dangerous. An emphasis on national sovereignty can, and has at times, prevented humanitarian intervention and the saving of lives.

In my view, Muslim nations need less blind faith and a lot more reason.

[MagusYanam]

I hate to disagree with you here, Magus, but I think it is or should be common knowledge that science is not entirely neutral. Scientific research is funded by specific administrations or specific corporations with specific results in mind. Einstein's letter to the US President, if I don't remember wrong, did mention the military uses of atomic energy.

Would that weren't true, though it is. It would be better if scientists in universities carried more clout in their spheres than those employed by a specific business or administration, because scientists in corporations or in the employ of political entities (sadly enough) tend to have a bias that slants their data. University scientists tend to be far less biased in their assessment of the data as it is given them. The criticism does not hold, however, as a blanket indictment of all scientists on the grounds that they are all beholden to the military or to business interests related to military affairs. I gave examples, up to and including my own father (who would, I imagine, rather quit being a scientist than work for the military).

The Westphalian model did not prevent nation-states from making war against each other, and nationalism is just as dangerous. An emphasis on national sovereignty can, and has at times, prevented humanitarian intervention and the saving of lives.

In my view, Muslim nations need less blind faith and a lot more reason.

I'm not saying that the Westphalian model put an end to war or killing - it didn't, just look at our history! What I'm saying is that it effectively stopped Western Christians from killing others in the name of God or their religion. Instead, people kill in the name of their countries, which is not exactly an improvement - the main gist of the argument, though, was that Christians don't kill each other in the name of God (as some Muslims do). I was pointing out why that was.

In the Islamic world, there is not as strong a Westphalian mentality even though the superstructure is Westphalian. Also, there is not as strong a distinction between the roles of church and state (which is why you see more clerics in politics). People in Saudi Arabia or Iraq or Syria or Egypt don't think of themselves as Saudis or Iraqis or Syrians or Egyptians - they think of themselves first as Muslims, second as Sunnis or Shi'a.

As to my point about Bush's disregard for sovereignty, that was not so much a point about the Iraq war in general as it was about the rationale behind it. Yes, nations do go to war with each other under the Westphalian system, but generally not over matters of sovereignty - with a few exceptions: World War I, when the Austrians demanded that Serbia surrender its sovereignty over the murders of Franz and Sofia Ferdinand, and Gulf War II, when Bush decided to issue an ultimatum basically demanding that the existing Iraqi government turn sovereignty over to the United States.

Mostly, nations under the Westphalian model go to war over resources or territorial disputes, fight until one or the other gives up, then sign a peace treaty. Neither country surrenders its sovereignty to the other, under normal circumstances. That ended up changing somewhat with the Cold War, when definitions of sovereignty became slightly more blurred - nations beholden to the Soviets and nations beholden to the United States suddenly became almost free-for-alls.

[AlAyeti]

Magus,

I would have liked to see you comment on my two-hours plus, at the Mosque. With, my two children. If that is not anti-bigotry I don't know what is. I did not go there to insult or to evangelize. I went there to talk to human beings.

By the way, Pacifists i.e., anti-war activists and draft dodgers, do nothing positive for the world at all. They just pat each other on the back while innocent people die in far off lands. Unless we are talking Christians martyrs that changed the world or the political lawyer Ghandi, OR! that Chinese man who stood in front of those tanks.

You have a good point about the weapons used by soldiers in war. But so many soldiers don't want to be in war as to make the point that they kill in some other way than having to to survive the experience is ludicrous. Not everybody can be a cowardly draft-dodger or anti-war marcher. And many people don't like smoking dope.

Islam and Pacifism in general, have shown to be very detrimental to the freedom and life of others outside their little cliques. Christianity on the other hand embraces those that denigrate and While soldiers rescue children and other innocent people and fight and die so that other people in other lands can have a future, both apathetic Muslim's and apathetic Pacifists (which is redundant), are standing somewhere far away from the murderers and doing nothing to actually do anything to the perpetrators. I know in America, since I am a union employee, almost all anti-war marchers are purely anti-Americans and mostly Marxist communists. In Europe I'd bet it is almost 100%.

I've been there, done that, and literally bought the T-Shirt. And now that I have seen it with my own eyes, will never go back. Of course I have seen the horrors of what science has wrought on the world first hand as well.

[MagusYanam]

Two hours in a mosque is hardly enough time for me to even begin to get to know about a person, let alone about an entire religion. Try an entire year at a Rhode Island public school with Muslim and Jewish classmates debating Palestine or the works of Dante and Goethe, and then you might be getting somewhere. That year largely shaped my opinions of Islam and Judaism.

By the way, Pacifists i.e., anti-war activists and draft dodgers, do nothing positive for the world at all. They just pat each other on the back while innocent people die in far off lands. Unless we are talking Christians martyrs that changed the world or the political lawyer Ghandi, OR! that Chinese man who stood in front of those tanks.

Wrong again. Pacifists are usually the ones pushing for diplomacy so the soldiers don't have to go die in far-off lands, and create a system of social justice so poverty and desperation don't cause any more terrorism. You have yet to explain away the A/BFSC and the MCC, not to mention the CPS, with your 'empiricism'. You have yet to explain away the Muslims who are in favour of democracy and humanitarianism, like Shirin Ebadi. You have yet to explain away the scientists who didn't and don't participate in the construction of WMD's. It strikes me more and more that you rely on evidence only when it suits your argument-of-the-day and rely on stereotypes and preconceptions when it doesn't.

You have a good point about the weapons used by soldiers in war. But so many soldiers don't want to be in war as to make the point that they kill in some other way than having to to survive the experience is ludicrous. Not everybody can be a cowardly draft-dodger or anti-war marcher. And many people don't like smoking dope.

If the soldiers don't want to be in war, then why did they become soldiers in the first place? It's obviously not because of the benefits, or that the pay is good - we know a soldier can't support a family of three on just their pay from the U.S. military. So please, offer an alternative explanation.

And you're saying motivation has anything to do with it? Please. That's like saying, 'I didn't mean to stab that guy to death, Victorinox did'.

Then there's the point of your unfair and un-empirical assessment of pacifism. My parents and grandparents never smoked weed in their lives, nor do any other kind of drug (except coffee and the occasional glass of wine). I've never touched a cigarette, let alone marijuana, and I only drink alcohol at communion. I know empirically that your assessment is completely wrong.

As to being a communist, I'd hardly qualify - I've got more Menshevik in me than Bolshevik any day of the week.

Christianity on the other hand embraces those that denigrate and While soldiers rescue children and other innocent people and fight and die so that other people in other lands can have a future, both apathetic Muslim's and apathetic Pacifists (which is redundant), are standing somewhere far away from the murderers and doing nothing to actually do anything to the perpetrators.

No evidence to back it up? Thought as much: the only thing that even looks like evidence is the statement that you're in the union, and what does it even have to do with pacifism? By the way, most pacifists are Christians. Ever heard of Menno Simon? What about George Fox? William Penn? Walter Rauschenbusch? Norman Thomas? I'm the one producing all the evidence, here, and sad to say not much of it favours your illogical diatribes. My history professor would describe what you're doing as 'flatulent generalisation'.

Of course I have seen the horrors of what science has wrought on the world first hand as well.

Wouldn't care to share what you've seen, would you? Thought not.

[AlAyeti]

Did any of these great pacifists, "peaceful scientists" (yeah) or anti-Jihad Muslim's of yours ever go to where the carnage is?

I thought not.

Cowards.

I walked into a Mosque with my two children and asked them the same questions I pose here.

The un-named man in Tainnaman Square would have never stepped foot out of his US East Coast home for anything, except to legalize sexual perversion and abortion.

Now peaceful Christian missionaries? Dying like innocent lambs all over the African, Middle East and indonesian world.

Guess who and what religionists are killing them?

I could debate you all-day long in front of any non-humanist Neo-Liberal group, on what we can actually see with our own eyes happening right now and never have to reference anyone by name. A debater can use his own assertions to back up empirical truth. Muslim's kill innocent people in the name of Islam. Let the evidence in front of eveyone's eyes right now, decide the truth of my position. No American pacifist is standing in front of a suicide bomber. A fact. Let the evidence in front of everyone's eyes right now, decide the truth of my position.

American soldiers in WWII are a perfect example of "people" willing to confront evil by going to it. A pacifist designs block- parties.

I am not an evangelists so I could care less about changing poeple or what they want to believe in, but, empiricism, I can stand on as foundation for my assertions because it is there for all but the most closed-minded to see what is really happening when the facts are observed.

Please argue with a "Muslim fundamentalist" the way you do with me, a "Christian fundamentalist." I want you to live free (and unimprisoned or threatened) and to be as naturally old as "nature" has in store for you. There is always a chance for sensibilty to enter into a person's mind until the moment of death. I will never harm you or teach your children anything unnatural or violent. But I will oppose evil in our society vehemently when it wants access to our children in schools. Both Islam and Neo-Libs try to warp minds by one-sided purposeful misrepresentation of facts. My mom had a three letter word for that.

As you can see by that statement I not only oppose Islam, but also American Neo-Liberalism too unstable to see the writing on the wall about Islamic totalitarianism, based of course by empiricism. And we both know in what part of America has the most Liberal states and how much freedom non-Muslim's (or Muslim women,) get around Mecca city. Complicit is a word that comes to mind.

My eyes are open just like the Prophet Jesus advised. And my ears? I heard that man's screams when the people who adhere to the religion of peace sawed off his head.

Please defend something else. Islam is a forged hammer. Tapping at it to change is not possible. Only when love is truly embraced and not an AK-47 and a detenator switch (or a D&C machine) will the world see the Way the Truth and the Life of the religion of peace. Of course that is why vilolence and science will not let freedom ring.

Peace? And the only way to it?

Islam says it was not nailed to a Cross.

[MagusYanam]

Did any of these great pacifists, "peaceful scientists" (yeah) or anti-Jihad Muslim's of yours ever go to where the carnage is?

I thought not.

Cowards.

Okay, now you've officially proven you don't know what you're talking about. Has Shirin Ebadi 'gone to where the carnage is'? She lives in Iran. Yes, that Iran - the one where theocrats are in charge and oppressing most Muslims along with other-religionists and women - and she's fighting to change it from within at great risk to herself. You'd know that if you'd read the link.

Has Menno Simon 'gone to where the carnage is'? His followers and others of the Radical Reformation were slaughtered by the thousands throughout his lifetime - by 1530, most Anabaptist leaders were martyred by (guess who) Catholics and evangelicals for refusing to renounce their pacifism. Hardly a cowardly thing for the Anabaptists to do.

Norman Thomas was a Presbyterian minister who ministered in East Harlem before entering politics. Walter Rauschenbusch ministered and did social missions in a Baptist Church in Hell's Kitchen (Brooklyn). Hardly sheltered lives or cowardly missions. Look all of them up on Wikipedia. My grandparents (both pacifists) both served their churches in impoverished Puerto Rico - that's where they met. My own father was extremely active in the MCC while we were in the Mennonite Church.

I walked into a Mosque with my two children and asked them the same questions I pose here.

And it is increasingly obvious that you only heard the answers you wanted to hear.

American soldiers in WWII are a perfect example of "people" willing to confront evil by going to it. A pacifist designs block- parties.

You can't have it both ways. You can't denounce the use of WMD's in World War II and then venerate those who used them, that's logically ridiculous. Just drop this argument before you embarrass yourself even more.

Muslim's kill innocent people in the name of Islam.

And Christians kill innocent people not in the name of Christianity, but of their countries, as we've already discussed. How is that any better? Clean the mote out of your own eye before you pick at someone else's.

empiricism, I can stand on as foundation for my assertions because it is there for all but the most closed-minded to see what is really happening when the facts are observed

Well, I have yet to see the facts you've presented for observation - I've been presenting them all along. All I've seen from you are unsubstantiated assertions, generalisations and stereotypes.

No American pacifist is standing in front of a suicide bomber. A fact.

Why? Because you say so? The burden of proof lies with you.

Please argue with a "Muslim fundamentalist" the way you do with me, a "Christian fundamentalist."

If an Islamist were here on this board, I would be arguing with them as well.

But I will oppose evil in our society vehemently when it wants access to our children in schools. Both Islam and Neo-Libs try to warp minds by one-sided purposeful misrepresentation of facts. My mom had a three letter word for that.

You have every right to oppose evil in our society, but since I've seen nothing to indicate that Islam or neoliberalism want 'access to our children in schools' anywhere near as much as the creationist agenda, I have an eight-letter word for what I see here: 'paranoia'.

And we both know in what part of America has the most Liberal states and how much freedom non-Muslim's (or Muslim women,) get around Mecca city. Complicit is a word that comes to mind.

What does New England have anything to do with Mecca? Again, the burden of proof rests with you. But since my family and I live in New England, I imagine any impressions I have would be far more 'empirical' than any assertions you'll make - and I say I've found nothing to connect Rhode Island (or Massachusetts, or Vermont) with Saudi Arabia, much less to indicate complicity.

My eyes are open just like the Prophet Jesus advised.

Islam is a forged hammer. Tapping at it to change is not possible.

The latter obviously falsifies the former: Islam, to those whose eyes are open, is not a 'forged hammer' - a 'forged hammer' would be complete and unitary. Islam is not monolithic - there are Sunni and there are Shia. There are extremists (e.g. al-Qaeda - the ones against whom you should direct your line of argumentation), there are moderates (e.g. most American Muslims) and there are reformists (e.g. most Turkish Sunnis). A basic History 103 class bears me out on this - the Islamic world is no more monolithic than Europe is. In fact less so, considering the Europeans at least have the EU (for which the Islamic world has nothing to compare).

Of course that is why vilolence and science will not let freedom ring.

I'll agree with you on the violence part - that's why I'm a pacifist. You have yet to demonstrate the culpability of the scientific community as a whole and you have yet to demonstrate specifically how scientists involved in the military are more culpable than the military itself. You have yet to demonstrate the culpability of the entire Islamic tradition - so far your arguments only apply to the extremists who are actually doing the beheadings (my Muslim classmates never beheaded anyone) or using AK 47's and bombs to kill people (things my Muslim classmates have probably never touched). You have yet to defend how you can denigrate pacifism (again, as a whole) and yet claim to embrace a religion of peace, truth and freedom.

The world is not evenly divided up into 'us' and 'them'. Those people who do just that (certain neoconservative unipolarists, fundamentalists Islamic and Christian, fascists, communists) cause no end of pain and suffering in the world. I have been happy enough to be able to find common ground with Muslims and Jews as well as with other Christians.

Oh, yes - I will defend the non-violent and less extreme versions of Islam on this thread, because that's what the topic is.

[AlAyeti]

Magus,

I have a good friend from an African country and he is trying to become an American citizen. His views on "Muslim's" is far more experienced than mine.

Pure violence is what he knows of Islam.

Scientists make money or get one more Doctorate from designing WMD's.

Soldiers serve their country.

American paicifists (actually Apathists) that march in American streets are cowards. I'll put it that way to honor the people you mention.

Your view of people serving in the military is typically dishonoring of a leftist mindset.

"Islam" is a forged hammer. That there are sensible people that are Muslim's is to be expected.

Open-minded Islam?

There is no Jihad in the mouth of Jesus. Actually the exact opposite. And, please Jihad means war against others who are not Muslim's.

Christian Missionaries of June 2005 are purely peaceful. That ignorant and violent people dwelled within the Christian faith is to be expected and they were challenged and expelled.

Pathetic attempt at labeling miltary actions and to attribute them to Christianity. That's Bin Laden talking.

The world has been waiting for peaceful Muslim's since Mohammad and has yet to see peace where totalitarian Islamic rule is not what is meant by peace.

Care to do the math on Islamic altruism?

Christianity brought the enlightenment to Europe.

Islam has brought what to the Mid-East and downtown New York?

And I will be more than happy to post on another thread the threat and sexually perverted action that is being meted out innocent children by the Neo-Liberl movement. A movement dominated by East coast (and Californian) politics.

[bernee51]

I have a good friend from an African country and he is trying to become an American citizen. His views on "Muslim's" is far more experienced than mine.

Pure violence is what he knows of Islam.

I have many friends from India. Egypt and Turkey who are Muslim...they are peaceful god-loving people who's generosity and compassion would put many 'christian' I have known to shame.

What is your expericence any more or less important than mine?

Scientists make money or get one more Doctorate from designing WMD's.

And if Bill Gates had a dollar for everytime Windows crashed he'd...wait a minute...

See I can use non-seqs as well

Soldiers serve their country.

Soldiers are mercenaries. They get paid to kill.

American paicifists (actually Apathists) that march in American streets are cowards.

"But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along ... tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. "

Who said these words?

There is no Jihad in the mouth of Jesus...
Christian Missionaries of June 2005 are purely peaceful.

Any religion of conversion is a religion of violence. Any religion that purports to be sole owner of the truth and moves turn people away from their beliefs or their culture...no matter what the reason...is an act of violence against that person.

Islam and christianity share that history and that ideal.

Pathetic attempt at labeling miltary actions and to attribute them to Christianity.

You are taking the actions of a few, who claim to be acting for Islam, and tarring the entire religion with the same brush.

You are doing exactly what you condemn in others.

That is known as '<strong>hypocrisy</strong>'.

Care to do the math on Islamic altruism?

Sure...I have travelled extensively in Muslim countries and been treated with respect, courtesy and generosity. I have been given food, lodging and transport without asking.

I have travelled extensively in Christian countries and been abused, robbed, ripped off and otherwise fleeced.

Have you ever been outside your backyard?

Christianity brought the enlightenment to Europe.

ROTFLMAO. Read a history book before you shoot your mouth off.

The Enlightenment in Europe was a reaction to religiosity.

Islam has brought what to the Mid-East and downtown New York?

Islam didn't do that - politics did.

And I will be more than happy to post on another thread the threat and sexually perverted action that is being meted out innocent children by the Neo-Liberl movement. A movement dominated by East coast (and Californian) politics.

Do so - but do try to back it with evidence - not your opinion.

I can get your opinion from the same place as you...Fox News (We Report, You Believe)...why should I bother to read it here?

[AlAyeti]

"The Enlightenment in Europe was a reaction to religiosity."

Well said Bernee.

That is the exact same mission as the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah.

Your Muslim's friends as nice to "Born Again" Christians traveling in their Muslim countries?

Not too many beheadings and suicide bombings of the infidel non-Christian in my large backyard of the continental United States.

American soldiers are just people. Not mercenaries. As is obvious by the lack of genocide being meted out to the Iraqi's standing by and letting a Muslim terrorist slaughter innocent men, women and children to kill a couple of American soldiers. America is the country all others call on and rely on to save lives. That is an observable fact. Not too many starving Africans demanding India come and save them from Muslim militants stealing what food is brought to them by Christian Ministries from the United States.

Non-sequitur is fair if you weave it onto topic. Don't be afraid to explore your vast knowledge.

[AlAyeti]

Magus,

No country in need calls on the American apthetic anti-war peace protesters. They know theycannot rely on cowards.

They rejoice when the United States military arrives to bring food, clothing and medical supplies as well as guns, to save lives.

Every person murdered in the killing fields (millions and millions of them), after the dopers and free love hippies forced the United States to leave Vietnam, everyone of those people who lives were protected by US soldiers, died because of the actions of antiwar activists.

The same people seeking Viagra now.

Anti-war activists are soldiers who died so that others may live. The still living anti-war protesters are still alive and still cowards, but they live in the houses vacated by the dead.

Empiricism is a sometimes bitter pill.

Probably like Viagra.