Can the Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error?

[McCulloch]

The Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error.

Can the Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error? If the same principles that disprove the Koran were applied to the Bible, would the Bible be disproven too?

[bernee51]

The Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error.

Can the Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error?

Nope!!

35:1
Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

6:100-101
Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?

6:100 (Y. Ali) Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
6:101 (Y. Ali) To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

So where is the contradiction or error?

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

6. 101 Allah can't have a son without a consort.

Allah cannot do all things.

It is a contradiction.

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

You said:

Allah can not do something which is ungodly or beneath his majesty like having a son.

So Allah cannot do all things.

Who is right - you or the Koran?

[muhammad rasullah]

The Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error.

Can the Koran can be disproven and shown to be in error?

Nope!!

35:1
Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

6:100-101
Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?

6:100 (Y. Ali) Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
6:101 (Y. Ali) To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

So where is the contradiction or error?

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

6. 101 Allah can't have a son without a consort.

Allah cannot do all things.

It is a contradiction.

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

You said:

Allah can not do something which is ungodly or beneath his majesty like having a son.

So Allah cannot do all things.

Who is right - you or the Koran?

The Quran is right. I am saying what the Quran says 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Allah cannot have a son because it is beneath his majesty to do so.
Again where is the contradiction?

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Examples of grammatical errors in the Qur’ân:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-AZ6if0Qlw

[muhammad rasullah]

Examples of grammatical errors in the Qur’ân:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-AZ6if0Qlw

Verse 5:69

5:69 (Y. Ali) Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


"Innal-ladhiina aamanuu wal-ladhiina haaduu was-Saabi'uuna wan-Nasaaraa man aamana bilaahi wal Yawm il-'Aakhiri wa amila Saalian falaa khawfun alayhim wa laa hum yazanuun."

Concerning this verse the author of the criticism claims that the word Saabi'uuna should be declined Saabi'iina and that Saabi'uuna is definitely wrong (according to him). From a grammatical point of view, there are many arguments to put forward in support of the famous declension Sabi'uuna.

TK, chapter 12, page 51/52 :

1. According to Seebaweih and Al-Khaleel, Sabi'uuna is "mobtada" " (i.e. in the nominative case) while the " khabar " (the indicative name) is omitted. This is one of the cases of omission/eclipse (7adhf) that are frequently met in the Arabic language. The indicative part of the sentence is "kadhaalik" (as well or too). Consequently, the sentence before omission is "Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Sabaeans as well, and the Christians ... " This is the humble argument I stated on 26/06.
2. According to Al-Farraa', in this sentence, the word Inna is "weak" (in Arabic : "Daeefah") for three reasons among which I cite : The effect of Inna appears on some names only, if the name that follows Inna does not change by declension, then its effect may or may not be transmitted to the following parts of the sentence. In our case, the word al-ladheena has one form only in all grammatical cases. So, the word Saabi'uuna admits two declensions : Saabi'uuna as in the famous reading and Sabi'iina as in the readings of Ubayy Ibn Kab, Ibn Masood and Ibn Katheer (and as "suggested" by the author of the criticism). Another example taken from the Arabic heritage is saying : "Inna haa'olaa'i wa ikhwatoka yokrimoonanaa." (These people and your brothers are generous with us). The word haa'olaa'i is invariable. Thus, we can say ikhwatoka or ikhwatika and both are correct. Note: we can account for "ikhwatoka" using the first argument : These people, and your brothers as well, are generous with us.

In conclusion, the mistake made by Mr. Newton is to claim that the declension Saabi'uuna is wrong and that the right declension is so and so. Maybe, he was not aware of some aspects of the Arabic language. In fact, a major characteristic of the Arabic language is that it is elliptical. Many linguistic sets like "shukran" ("Thank you.") or "afwan" ("welcome") are examples of omission because the original sentences are "I thank you" and "You are welcome".

Taken from:
http://www.angelfire.com/mo/Alborhaan/Gram.html

[bernee51]

The Quran is right. I am saying what the Quran says 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Allah cannot have a son because it is beneath his majesty to do so.
Again where is the contradiction?

Then the Koran is self contradictory.

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

Note the bolded part - ALL THINGS

Yet it also says (in your words) Allah CANNOT DO something that is beneath his majesty.

In one verse it claims Allah can do all things in another it states something he cannot do.

The contradiction is simple and obvious.

[muhammad rasullah]

The Quran is right. I am saying what the Quran says 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Allah cannot have a son because it is beneath his majesty to do so.
Again where is the contradiction?

Then the Koran is self contradictory.

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

Note the bolded part - ALL THINGS

Yet it also says (in your words) Allah CANNOT DO something that is beneath his majesty.

In one verse it claims Allah can do all things in another it states something he cannot do.

The contradiction is simple and obvious.

It's no contradiction at all. Your simplistic way of understanding is your failure to really understand the meaning of the verse. Allah can do all things that befit his majesty and do not contradict who he is. So the verses are understood meaning 35:1 Allah can do all things, 19:88 (Y. Ali) They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!", # 19:89 (Y. Ali) Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!, 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

Yes Allah can do all things but he cannot be something other than what he is, this is what you are failing to understand. Allah cannot be a man because man has limitations and Allah has no limitations. Man is in need of sustenance and Allah is in need of nothing he is self sufficient. Allah cannot beget a son because begetting is an animal and human act and requires a consort to beget with. And no one is equal with Allah or like him for him to beget a son. If he did so this would be a contradiction not the fact that it can't happen. Your simplistic view of can and can't limits you from understanding the meaning of the verse.

The Quran does not contradict itself and it is very clear.

[bernee51]

The Quran is right. I am saying what the Quran says 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Allah cannot have a son because it is beneath his majesty to do so.
Again where is the contradiction?

Then the Koran is self contradictory.

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

Note the bolded part - ALL THINGS

Yet it also says (in your words) Allah CANNOT DO something that is beneath his majesty.

In one verse it claims Allah can do all things in another it states something he cannot do.

The contradiction is simple and obvious.

It's no contradiction at all. Your simplistic way of understanding is your failure to really understand the meaning of the verse. Allah can do all things that befit his majesty and do not contradict who he is. So the verses are understood meaning 35:1 Allah can do all things, 19:88 (Y. Ali) They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!", # 19:89 (Y. Ali) Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!, 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

Yes Allah can do all things but he cannot be something other than what he is, this is what you are failing to understand. Allah cannot be a man because man has limitations and Allah has no limitations. Man is in need of sustenance and Allah is in need of nothing he is self sufficient. Allah cannot beget a son because begetting is an animal and human act and requires a consort to beget with. And no one is equal with Allah or like him for him to beget a son. If he did so this would be a contradiction not the fact that it can't happen. Your simplistic view of can and can't limits you from understanding the meaning of the verse.

The Quran does not contradict itself and it is very clear.

If it was 'very clear' we would not be having this discussion would we?

Does ALL THINGS, as stated in 35.1 mean everything, without exception?

So you are saying that Allah can do anything EXCEPT those things that are not in his nature? Is that correct?

If so then Allah cannot do all things. Correct?

If so then 35:1 Allah can do all things is inaccurate.

[Ms_Maryam]

If it was 'very clear' we would not be having this discussion would we?

Does ALL THINGS, as stated in 35.1 mean everything, without exception?

So you are saying that Allah can do anything EXCEPT those things that are not in his nature? Is that correct?

If so then Allah cannot do all things. Correct?

If so then 35:1 Allah can do all things is inaccurate.

....Well then, if "the contradiction is simple and obvious," as you stated, then we would not be having this conversation, would we?.....


"There are people who say that God could bring about even logical impossibilities, such as creating a square circle. This alone is enough for us to reject any view that implies an absurdity. For example, can we assume at this moment, at this place that it is both day and night at the same time?

If we say "yes," obviously we are trashing logic and reason. We should be wise enough to accept the reliability of reason and logic here as elsewhere. Proper understanding and communication rest on the principle of non-contradiction — that no statement is both true and false at the same time. What could it mean if we are told that not only can God create logical impossibilities but also cannot create them?

If we do not presuppose the principle of non-contradiction in our discussions, it is difficult to understand what we were saying and what we mean to say. Therefore, accepting the principle of non-contradiction is crucial to any meaningful discussion. Further, it is hard to make sense of a God to whom the principle of non-contradiction does not apply.

The question above represents what we may call a false dilemma. It is based on a false premise, where people assume Allah's omnipotence to mean that Allah can do anything. But as a matter of fact, since Allah is Perfect there are things Allah cannot do because they imply some sort of imperfection. For example, He cannot lie, err, sin, or die because these actions are contrary to His nature. So, Allah will never act in a way that is contrary to who He is."

http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Sat ... boutIslamE

There's more on the link..Feel free to read

[muhammad rasullah]

The Quran is right. I am saying what the Quran says 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
Allah cannot have a son because it is beneath his majesty to do so.
Again where is the contradiction?

Then the Koran is self contradictory.

35:1
Allah is Able to do all things.

Note the bolded part - ALL THINGS

Yet it also says (in your words) Allah CANNOT DO something that is beneath his majesty.

In one verse it claims Allah can do all things in another it states something he cannot do.

The contradiction is simple and obvious.

It's no contradiction at all. Your simplistic way of understanding is your failure to really understand the meaning of the verse. Allah can do all things that befit his majesty and do not contradict who he is. So the verses are understood meaning 35:1 Allah can do all things, 19:88 (Y. Ali) They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!", # 19:89 (Y. Ali) Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!, 19:92 (Y. Ali) For it is not consonant (in agreement) with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

Yes Allah can do all things but he cannot be something other than what he is, this is what you are failing to understand. Allah cannot be a man because man has limitations and Allah has no limitations. Man is in need of sustenance and Allah is in need of nothing he is self sufficient. Allah cannot beget a son because begetting is an animal and human act and requires a consort to beget with. And no one is equal with Allah or like him for him to beget a son. If he did so this would be a contradiction not the fact that it can't happen. Your simplistic view of can and can't limits you from understanding the meaning of the verse.

The Quran does not contradict itself and it is very clear.

If it was 'very clear' we would not be having this discussion would we?

Does ALL THINGS, as stated in 35.1 mean everything, without exception?

So you are saying that Allah can do anything EXCEPT those things that are not in his nature? Is that correct?

If so then Allah cannot do all things. Correct?

If so then 35:1 Allah can do all things is inaccurate.

Yes I am saying that Allah can do anything except those things that contradict who he is. Allah can do anything he wills 5:17 Allah has the power to will anything.

It is more than that Allah cannot do it such has have a son but that Allah does not do it. Just like cats don't bark, dogs can't breathe under water, and dolphins can't walk. If a cat acted like a dog then it wouldn't be a cat, if a dog acted like a shark then it wouldn't be a dog. If Allah was a man then he wouldn't be Allah it is opposite of who he is.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

In conclusion, the mistake made by Mr. Newton is to claim that the declension Saabi'uuna is wrong and that the right declension is so and so. Maybe, he was not aware of some aspects of the Arabic language.

Why set up a straw man with this Mr Newton quoted from another site? The video I posted the link to features someone who has grown up with Arabic and speaks and understands it fluently, including grammar.