Muslims worship Muhammad…

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Pazuzu bin Hanbi
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Muslims worship Muhammad…

Post #1

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua‘ in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua‘, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God’s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don’t let the title fool you — he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre–history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally–accepted views on Islamic ‘history’):
While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.


I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well–written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses:
Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped… The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ‘blasphemy’ — surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).
لا إلـــــــــــــــــــــــــــه

muhammad rasullah
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Post #211

Post by muhammad rasullah »

Apple Pie wrote:
muhammad rasullah wrote:
Apple Pie wrote:
muhammad rasullah wrote:
Apple Pie wrote:Come discuss the truth of the Koran...


http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicbibl ... ranicbible
Why do we need to go anywhere else I gave you in the previous posts numerous sources that show Allah revealed the quran to Muhammad.
No one named "Muhammad" existed in the Koran.
47:2 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to MUHAMMAD - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.

33:40 (Y. Ali) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
"Muhammad" is a participle in the Koran.

Not a proper name.

Further, it applies to Jesus Christ.


http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicbibl ... ranicbible
This is just plain ridiculous now. That's your cop out Muhammad is a participle? Muhammad is not a participle in verse 33:40 or 47:2. Muhammad is a name Messenger is the participle in messenger of Allah. And how does it apply to Jesus when it clearly mentions Muhammad and not Jesus?

Man your ways of reading are very weird I must say...
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"

Apple Pie
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Post #212

Post by Apple Pie »

muhammad rasullah wrote:
This is just plain ridiculous now. That's your cop out Muhammad is a participle? Muhammad is not a participle in verse 33:40 or 47:2. Muhammad is a name Messenger is the participle in messenger of Allah.
The term "Muhammad" was a participle when the Koran was penned by its authors.

The scant four times that the term is used in the Koran, is as a participle....never a proper name of anynone...



And how does it apply to Jesus when it clearly mentions Muhammad and not Jesus?

The participle "Muhammad" means "praised one". This is just one of the numerous Biblical epithets applied to Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible, from which the authors of the Koran copied it from.

muhammad rasullah
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Post #213

Post by muhammad rasullah »

Apple Pie wrote:
muhammad rasullah wrote:
This is just plain ridiculous now. That's your cop out Muhammad is a participle? Muhammad is not a participle in verse 33:40 or 47:2. Muhammad is a name Messenger is the participle in messenger of Allah.
The term "Muhammad" was a participle when the Koran was penned by its authors.

The scant four times that the term is used in the Koran, is as a participle....never a proper name of anynone...



And how does it apply to Jesus when it clearly mentions Muhammad and not Jesus?

The participle "Muhammad" means "praised one". This is just one of the numerous Biblical epithets applied to Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible, from which the authors of the Koran copied it from.
Muhammad's name means "the praised one" that's the only thing you have gotten correct so far. But the reason Muhammad is not translated as the praised one is because it is a name and not a participle. If Muhammad was translated as a participle with the meaning the praised one then the verses where it is mentioned would make no sense. And also it would still give the impression that there is a person being referenced to in the verses.
Ex: 33:40 (Y. Ali) Muhammad (the praised one) is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

You see even in the verse it implies someone being referred to, a person.
Now for you to go so far as to say that the praised one is Jesus is just plainly wrong which you have no evidence for.
Another verse:
47:2 (Y. Ali) But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad (the praised one)- for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Again the verse implies a living human being, a person. Not Jesus but Muhammad. Further evidence is in another verse about who the Quran was revealed to:
12:3 (Y. Ali) We do relate unto thee the most beautiful of stories, in that We reveal to thee this (portion of the) Qur'an: before this, thou too was among those who knew it not.
Now of course you don't believe that the Quran was revealed to Jesus? Since you don't then the only conclusion to make is that the revelation in verse 47:2 being referred to is the Quran and it was revealed to Muhammad the praised one.

You still have yet to show where the stories of incest and rape and idol worship by prophets that is mentioned in the bible is copied at in the Quran.
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"

Apple Pie
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Post #214

Post by Apple Pie »

muhammad rasullah wrote:Muhammad's name means "the praised one" that's the only thing you have gotten correct so far. But the reason Muhammad is not translated as the praised one is because it is a name and not a participle.

False.


محمد = “muhammad�

“muhammad� definition:

Passive participle. A man praised much, or repeatedly, or time after time; endowed with many praiseworthy qualities. Praised one.

It comes from the root “hamida� (ha-miim-dal), which means he praised, eulogized, or commended him; spoke well of him; mentioned him with approbation; sometimes because of favor received. Also implies admiration; and it implies the magnifying, or honoring, of the object thereof; and lowliness, humility, or submissiveness, in the person who offers it. He declared the praises of God or he praised God much with good forms of praise.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 638 – 640
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 135 - 136
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 38
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 56







If Muhammad was translated as a participle with the meaning the praised one then the verses where it is mentioned would make no sense.



False.

It makes perfect sense.



And also it would still give the impression that there is a person being referenced to in the verses.



Of course…

The classic definition already states that it applies to a man.
:roll:

Ex: 33:40 (Y. Ali) Muhammad (the praised one) is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

You see even in the verse it implies someone being referred to, a person.

As per the classic definition… “a man praised much�.

Do some homework….


Now for you to go so far as to say that the praised one is Jesus is just plainly wrong which you have no evidence for.

The Koranic “Muhammad� is Jesus Christ.

This is beyond reasonable doubt…


http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicbibl ... ranicbible


Another verse:
47:2 (Y. Ali) But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad (the praised one)- for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Again the verse implies a living human being, a person. Not Jesus but Muhammad.



Observe…






والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل
على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم ك�ر عنهم
سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم


Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He, The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.



Your Yusuf Ali rendering attempts to reduce your “prophet� down to an inanimate object….when, in fact, your “Muhammad� has to power forgive people’s sins…same as the Biblical Jesus Christ.

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Ms_Maryam
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Post #215

Post by Ms_Maryam »

Apple Pie wrote: The Koranic “Muhammad� is Jesus Christ.

This is beyond reasonable doubt…


http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicbibl ... ranicbible
So are you saing that Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't a real person, and when he is mentioned in the Quran, it's a reference to Jesus Christ?

Therefore, according to your claim, in the Quran, when it states not to worship Muhammad (pbuh), just as the people have worshipped Isa (Jesus pbuh), it's referring to the same person?


Another verse:
47:2 (Y. Ali) But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad (the praised one)- for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Again the verse implies a living human being, a person. Not Jesus but Muhammad


Observe…

والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل
على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم ك�ر عنهم
سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم


Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He,The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.


Your Yusuf Ali rendering attempts to reduce your “prophet� down to an inanimate object….when, in fact, your “Muhammad� has to power forgive people’s sins…same as the Biblical Jesus Christ.
The "He" in that line that has the power to forgive them of their evil, is not referring to Muhammad, but its referring to "their Lord"=Allah.

Apple Pie
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Post #216

Post by Apple Pie »

Ms_Maryam wrote:
Apple Pie wrote: The Koranic “Muhammad� is Jesus Christ.

This is beyond reasonable doubt…


http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicbibl ... ranicbible
So are you saing that Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't a real person, and when he is mentioned in the Quran, it's a reference to Jesus Christ?

Correct...



Therefore, according to your claim, in the Quran, when it states not to worship Muhammad (pbuh), just as the people have worshipped Isa (Jesus pbuh), it's referring to the same person?
Where does the Koran state this?

Another verse:
47:2 (Y. Ali) But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad (the praised one)- for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Again the verse implies a living human being, a person. Not Jesus but Muhammad


Observe…

والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل
على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم ك�ر عنهم
سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم


Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He,The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.


Your Yusuf Ali rendering attempts to reduce your “prophet� down to an inanimate object….when, in fact, your “Muhammad� has to power forgive people’s sins…same as the Biblical Jesus Christ.
The "He" in that line that has the power to forgive them of their evil, is not referring to Muhammad, but its referring to "their Lord"=Allah.
False.

Gramatically it applies to "Muhammad".

Only God can forgive sins.

This then makes "Muhammad" a God-man.

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Ms_Maryam
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Post #217

Post by Ms_Maryam »

Ms_Maryam wrote:
Therefore, according to your claim, in the Quran, when it states not to worship Muhammad (pbuh), just as the people have worshipped Isa (Jesus pbuh), it's referring to the same person?
Apple Pie wrote:Where does the Koran state this?
I'll be back


Ms_Maryam wrote:

The "He" in that line that has the power to forgive them of their evil, is not referring to Muhammad, but its referring to "their Lord"=Allah.
Apple Pie wrote:False.

Gramatically it applies to "Muhammad".

Only God can forgive sins.

This then makes "Muhammad" a God-man.
[/quote]
I feel as if this conversation is really pointless. People will twists things to support their beliefs, and I guess some would hold that same opinion about me. Anywho...

Apple, all I can say is that in the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh), as well as any other Prophet (pbut), is never given the attribute of forgiving one's sins. It's funny, to me, that you mention "grammatically" (it applies to Muhammad) because the Quran is in Arabic. When you read verses from the Quran that are in Arabic, they are a translation. An interpretation. But ofcourse, the meaning won't change just because it's translated from another language, but there are different grammar rules. For example, in English, sentences are usually subject+predicate... In other languages the predicate comes before the subject and so on. While the meaning doesn't change, the languages have different grammar rules.

I hope my attempt at clearing my claims hasn't confused.

muhammad rasullah
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Post #218

Post by muhammad rasullah »

Apple Pie wrote:
Ms_Maryam wrote:
Apple Pie wrote: The Koranic “Muhammad� is Jesus Christ.

This is beyond reasonable doubt…


http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicbibl ... ranicbible
So are you saing that Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't a real person, and when he is mentioned in the Quran, it's a reference to Jesus Christ?

Correct...



Therefore, according to your claim, in the Quran, when it states not to worship Muhammad (pbuh), just as the people have worshipped Isa (Jesus pbuh), it's referring to the same person?
Where does the Koran state this?

Another verse:
47:2 (Y. Ali) But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad (the praised one)- for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
Again the verse implies a living human being, a person. Not Jesus but Muhammad


Observe…

والذين ءامنوا وعملوا الصلحت وءامنوا بما نزل
على محمد وهو الحق من ربهم ك�ر عنهم
سيءاتهم وأصلح بالهم


Waallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati waamanoo bima nuzzila AAala muhammadin wahuwa alhaqqu min rabbihim kaffara AAanhum sayyi-atihim waaslaha balahum

47.2 And whom they believed and they did the righteous deeds, and they believed on account of that which was sent down according to (the) Praised One, and He,The Truth, from their Lord, to forgive them of their evil, thou pay, and He did that which was good, right, or just (in) their heart.


Your Yusuf Ali rendering attempts to reduce your “prophet� down to an inanimate object….when, in fact, your “Muhammad� has to power forgive people’s sins…same as the Biblical Jesus Christ.
The "He" in that line that has the power to forgive them of their evil, is not referring to Muhammad, but its referring to "their Lord"=Allah.
False.

Gramatically it applies to "Muhammad".

Only God can forgive sins.

This then makes "Muhammad" a God-man.
The funny thing is that in almost every post he is wrong and contradicting himself in his own statements.
Ms_Maryam wrote:So are you saing that Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't a real person, and when he is mentioned in the Quran, it's a reference to Jesus Christ?
[/quote]
Apple Pie wrote:Correct...
So where Muhammad is mentioned in the Quran Apple says it is speaking of Jesus right....
Ms_Maryam wrote:The "He" in that line that has the power to forgive them of their evil, is not referring to Muhammad, but its referring to "their Lord"=Allah.
[/quote]

Apple Pie wrote:False.

Gramatically it applies to "Muhammad".
Make yourself clear again who you THINK it is?
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"

Kadmon
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Re: Muslims worship Muhammad?

Post #219

Post by Kadmon »

Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua? in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua?, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God?s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don?t let the title fool you ? he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre?history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally?accepted views on Islamic ?history?):
While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.


I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well?written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie?s The Satanic Verses:
Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped? The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ?blasphemy? ? surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).




Christianity
1 . Worship A Prophet ( Jesus ) Above All Others .
2 . Name Their Religion After Him ( Christianity .
3 . Sit Him On The Throne Next To '' God ''
4 . Preserve Relics Of jESUS
5 . Visit Supposed Grave In Jerusalem Of Jesus .
6 . Base Their Religion On The Books Of Men ; Matthew , Mark , Luke And Paul , etc
7 . Celebrate His Birthday ( Christmas Day , December 25th ) .

Islam Religion
1 . Worship A Prophet ( Muhammad ) Above All Others .
2 . Name Their Religion After Him ( Muhammad -Ism )
3 . Sit Him On The Throne Next To '' Allah '' .
4 . Preserve Relics Of Muhammad .
5 . Visit Grave In Medina Of Muhammad
6 . Base Their Religion On The Book Of Men ; Bukhari , Timidhi , Da'uwd , Muslims .
7 . Celebrate His Birthday ( Mawlad Annabi , Rajab December 12th ) .

muhammad rasullah
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Re: Muslims worship Muhammad?

Post #220

Post by muhammad rasullah »

Kadmon wrote:
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote:OK, now no muslim would state that they worship Muhammad. They may even believe that they worship Allah alone, but their actions and creedal testimonies put Muhammad in a position that other religions reserve for God. Even Yeshua? in the Bible, and ancient Assyrians, as well as other pagan groups, exhorted that we as people imitate God to achieve the Good Life. Yeshua?, for example, repeatedly states that people should copy God?s sense of mercy, justice, etc. Muslims, however, do their utmost to emulate Muhammad.

A couple of quotes. The first from the excellent contemporary scholarly book called Muslims: Their religious beliefs and practices by Andrew Rippin (don?t let the title fool you ? he delves deep into the various elements that have combined to form Islam from its pre?history to the present day and includes current scholarship on Islam, challenging traditionally?accepted views on Islamic ?history?):
While Muslims may think those who deny the existence of God or who utter blasphemies about Him are misguided, such discussions will not offend in the same manner in which discussions over Muhammad will. Those who insinuate evil of Muhammad or who cast aspersions on him are considered to be insulting Islam. This, upon consideration, is not surprising.


I know this myself, from having grown up in an Islamic community. It means muslims put Muhammad at the centre of Islam, not Allah! And the reactions Rippin notes above made me recall a passage I read in an autobiographical work by Ziauddin Sardar, a well?written and witty, not to mention interesting, book called Desperately Seeking Paradise. In this extract Sardar details his reaction to reading Rushdie?s The Satanic Verses:
Rushdie had plundered everything I hold dear and despoiled the inner sanctum of my identity. Every word was directed at me and I took everything personally. This is how, I remember thinking, it must feel to be raped? The life of the Prophet Muhammad is the source of Muslim identity. Muslims do not merely emulate his character and personality and follow his sayings and actions: it is the Prophet Muhammad who provides them with the ultimate reason for being a Muslim.

I do wonder if he or others would react like this if someone spoke out against Allah as opposed to Muhammad. Presented for your consideration: the reaction of muslims worldwide to the Danish cartoons (nobody lampooned Allah, only Muhammad), and the case of the Teddy Bear Named Muhammad (I recall some sources referring to this as ?blasphemy? ? surely only a crime against God ranks as blasphemy?).




Christianity
1 . Worship A Prophet ( Jesus ) Above All Others .
2 . Name Their Religion After Him ( Christianity .
3 . Sit Him On The Throne Next To '' God ''
4 . Preserve Relics Of jESUS
5 . Visit Supposed Grave In Jerusalem Of Jesus .
6 . Base Their Religion On The Books Of Men ; Matthew , Mark , Luke And Paul , etc
7 . Celebrate His Birthday ( Christmas Day , December 25th ) .

Islam Religion
1 . Worship A Prophet ( Muhammad ) Above All Others .
2 . Name Their Religion After Him ( Muhammad -Ism )
3 . Sit Him On The Throne Next To '' Allah '' .
4 . Preserve Relics Of Muhammad .
5 . Visit Grave In Medina Of Muhammad
6 . Base Their Religion On The Book Of Men ; Bukhari , Timidhi , Da'uwd , Muslims .
7 . Celebrate His Birthday ( Mawlad Annabi , Rajab December 12th ) .

It is obvious you have no knowledge about islam and it's teachings nor of what the quran says. no one worships the prophet Muhammad the shahadah is what a person must proclaim when accepting islam. And it goes "I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

It is not the teaching to celebrate the prophets birthday nor to visit his grave. The religion is Islam not muhammadism that is a term other people have come up with to name muslim's. But no muslim accepts that name or title for their religion. And the religion is not based upon the teachings of Men it is based upon the Quran. All of what you say is incoorect and is a gross example of your ignorance of the teachings of Islam.
Bismillahir rahmaanir Raheem \"In The Name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful\"

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