The Boy Scouts Pledge - Can an atheist serve?

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realthinker
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The Boy Scouts Pledge - Can an atheist serve?

Post #1

Post by realthinker »

I am a Cub Scout den leader for a pack affiliated with a local public elementary school. This statement from the by-laws of the Boy Scouts of America was the final topic in a leadership training I took part in last weekend.
The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God.
Here are a couple of related thoughts from the BSA regarding religion.
Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.
Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, § 1, cl. 1

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

This is the email note I sent our Cubmaster.
Dear XXXXX,

After the discussion of our final topic in last weekend's outdoor leader's training I feel I need to say something before it becomes a public topic for discussion on an awkward occasion. The official position of the BSA is that "The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." While it is a position I can support in order to maintain my association with the BSA, it is not a position I believe. In fact, I and my family believe that there is not a God that intercedes in our lives. We do not practice religion.

We do believe, however, in a strong community and in contributing in a positive and active fashion to the lives of children to build our community. We believe in being supportive to the parents and families of our community so that they might be successful in fulfilling their family obligations to the community, including their religious obligations. We believe that involvement in community activities and organizations is our duty and that it is our service that earns our place as neighbors.

You have my commitment to the organization, which includes my commitment to fulfill my duties with regard to the religious fulfillment of our scouts and their families. I feel that while my religious beliefs and participation may not be according to the organization's expectations, this is not in conflict with my expected duties as a den leader. I am committed to ensuring that every scout whom I deal with finds complete fulfillment of the scouting experience, and that scouting leadership finds no fault in my support.

Should you, as pack Cubmaster, feel otherwise and find my position incompatible with your exercise of scouting rules, I will quietly defer to your judgment. To do so would be contrary to my beliefs, to my support of friends and the families of my community.

I await your considerate reply. If you would like to discuss, please feel free to call.

With best regards,
I am clearly serving in contradiction to the BSA by-laws. My son, likewise, is clearly not eligible for membership. However, we both participate and have had no indication that there is any incompatibility with our local organization and its members. As I portrayed in my note, I feel my service is in no way compromised. I feel I am in no way undermining the organization or the families I work with.

What is your opinion of this situation? Do you feel that my religious position should be grounds for my removal as den leader? Do you feel it should be grounds for the exclusion of my son from Cub Scouts?
If all the ignorance in the world passed a second ago, what would you say? Who would you obey?

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Post #11

Post by Eph »

realthinker wrote:
I am faithfully and fully executing what I feel is my proper duty to God, which is none. The conflict is not within myself,but with what others assume is my duty.

~and~

Again, the real conflict is not between me and BSA, but is an anticipated conflict with those in the organization who will judge my understanding of my duty to God as insufficient. With regard to the BSA, I do not think it's necessary to make any statement regarding belief. It is not, from my experience, a valuable contributing portion of the BSA ideals. Its' vestigial.
Realthinker, I do not know if the BSA defines what "God" is. Different definitions might include your allegiance to reason and conscience - which would, in fact, coincide with the ideals and values of the BSA. If that is your belief, then you'd get my vote. Good luck, I'll be interested to hear how it turns out!
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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Post #12

Post by Nilloc James »

Eph wrote:
goat wrote:
Frankly, I will not support the Boy Scouts because of their discriminatory practices, against homosexuals and against atheists.
Then by your definition, one could argue that you shouldn't support Judaism either, after all they don't allow atheists to be members. Are they discriminatory?

All organizations have criteria for membership, and, therefore, some type of discrimination.

Unfortunately, the world we live in is forcing tolerance at all levels, like the gustapo. Message to Boy Scouts: Get on the bus, or else we will make everyone think you are racist pigs!

My belief in tolerance includes a mutual respect and a difference of opinion - as long as no one is getting hurt. This extends to religions and organizations like the Boy Scouts.
Judaism is a religion, common sense says only people who follow that faith belong in it.

The BSA are an organization trying to improve young peoples lives, blatent discrimination is not the way to do that.

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Post #13

Post by Goat »

Eph wrote:
goat wrote:
Frankly, I will not support the Boy Scouts because of their discriminatory practices, against homosexuals and against atheists.
Then by your definition, one could argue that you shouldn't support Judaism either, after all they don't allow atheists to be members. Are they discriminatory?
Actually, there ARE atheist Jews. Do you know so little about Judaism?? There are even practicing atheistic Jews.


All organizations have criteria for membership, and, therefore, some type of discrimination.
Well, IMO, they are teaching discrimination against people. So, I won't support them.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #14

Post by Eph »

Goat wrote:
Actually, there ARE atheist Jews. Do you know so little about Judaism?? There are even practicing atheistic Jews.
Honestly, I did not know that. I recently got a book called Jewish Literacy so that I could understand and appreciate their beliefs more than I do now. I had thought that a monotheistic belief in God was indeed a necessary part of Judaism. If what you say is true, I'll find out and thanks for setting me straight.

Nilloc James wrote:
Judaism is a religion, common sense says only people who follow that faith belong in it.
BSA is an organization with core principals and values and only people who follow those core principals belong to it.
The BSA are an organization trying to improve young peoples lives, blatent discrimination is not the way to do that.
Discrimination of Atheists - depends on our definition of God, again, I am unsure the BSA's definition, if they even have one.

Discrimination of Homosexuals - I have been on campouts with many a scoutmaster. Knowing what we know now about how those we have trusted most (namely clergy) and what can happen in intimate situations, I ask how can allowing men who are attracted to men in scouting be a good idea? Especially considering confined situations scouts often find themselves in? No, this is not discrimination, it is protection and common sense. And, before you go there, no I do not believe all (or most) gays are child molestors and many would certainly be good scoutmasters. However, we are all prone to suggestive thoughts when put in provocative situations with those we find attractive. IMHO, and as one who has lived as a Scout, I'll take safety over tolerance in this instance.

By the way, the armed forces have found themselves in the same quandry. I would say this time we are not talking about adult men who can take care of themselves, but young boys - big difference.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

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Post #15

Post by Goat »

Eph wrote:Goat wrote:
Actually, there ARE atheist Jews. Do you know so little about Judaism?? There are even practicing atheistic Jews.
Honestly, I did not know that. I recently got a book called Jewish Literacy so that I could understand and appreciate their beliefs more than I do now. I had thought that a monotheistic belief in God was indeed a necessary part of Judaism. If what you say is true, I'll find out and thanks for setting me straight.
In speciific, look at the 'reconstructionist judaism', and 'humanistic judaism'

However, here are Jewish atheists that follow the orthodox, conservative and reform movements too'

Some resources are http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_b ... l_Sept.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Jew

http://www.shj.org/
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #16

Post by JoeyKnothead »

You know this'n makes me realize I've been buying them girl scout cookies for years. I gotta quit that.
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Post #17

Post by Goat »

joeyknuccione wrote:You know this'n makes me realize I've been buying them girl scout cookies for years. I gotta quit that.
The Girl Scouts are a different organization, and accept any girls.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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Post #18

Post by JoeyKnothead »

goat wrote:
joeyknuccione wrote:You know this'n makes me realize I've been buying them girl scout cookies for years. I gotta quit that.
The Girl Scouts are a different organization, and accept any girls.
Hooray, I can have cookies again! I was having one heckuva time getting over that loss. I love me some girl scout cookies and a heaping big glass of ice cold milk.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Post #19

Post by Nilloc James »

joeyknuccione wrote:
goat wrote:
joeyknuccione wrote:You know this'n makes me realize I've been buying them girl scout cookies for years. I gotta quit that.
The Girl Scouts are a different organization, and accept any girls.
Hooray, I can have cookies again! I was having one heckuva time getting over that loss. I love me some girl scout cookies and a heaping big glass of ice cold milk.
They have great cookies.
Discrimination of Atheists - depends on our definition of God, again, I am unsure the BSA's definition, if they even have one.
Then what has this thread been about.

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Post #20

Post by Bio-logical »

Eph wrote:Goat wrote:

Nilloc James wrote:
Judaism is a religion, common sense says only people who follow that faith belong in it.
BSA is an organization with core principals and values and only people who follow those core principals belong to it.
Religions do not have membership rules. Churches may, but the only thing it takes to be part of any religion is to consider yourself part of it. This is the fundamental difference and why this is not a valid argument for the BSA being allowed to discriminate. The BSA has tax-exempt status and is partnered and promoted with many schools nationwide - that is why it is illegal for it to discriminate based upon religion: it violates the second amendment separation clause.

A statement like you made about the core principles and values is entirely acceptable if the BSA was not tax-exempt, but I think you are missing the point of the original poster. The point is not whether or not the BSA can discriminate, but more so whether it is right for it to do so. I personally was a scout for about 3 weeks once, so I never got to know anything about the program really, but I would have trouble putting my children through a program that encourages such bigoted attitudes.
The BSA are an organization trying to improve young peoples lives, blatent discrimination is not the way to do that.
Discrimination of Atheists - depends on our definition of God, again, I am unsure the BSA's definition, if they even have one.
Now you are playing a semantics game. The atheist definition of God is one of non-existence, which is obviously and blatantly opposed to any theistic definition. Furthermore, no atheist is their right mind would ever feel any obligation to "non-existence" but religious folk feel a deep dogmatic inclination to serve the thing that atheist denies exists. This is sort of one of those situations where both sides cannot be right and one definition is inherently opposed to the other.

Discrimination of Homosexuals - I have been on campouts with many a scoutmaster. Knowing what we know now about how those we have trusted most (namely clergy) and what can happen in intimate situations, I ask how can allowing men who are attracted to men in scouting be a good idea? Especially considering confined situations scouts often find themselves in? No, this is not discrimination, it is protection and common sense. And, before you go there, no I do not believe all (or most) gays are child molestors and many would certainly be good scoutmasters. However, we are all prone to suggestive thoughts when put in provocative situations with those we find attractive. IMHO, and as one who has lived as a Scout, I'll take safety over tolerance in this instance.

By the way, the armed forces have found themselves in the same quandry. I would say this time we are not talking about adult men who can take care of themselves, but young boys - big difference.
The good ole' homophobia argument... gotta love how it keeps popping up in the face of astronomically stacked numbers against it. Just the first citation I found, but I promise there are more:
The child offender is a relatively young adult either who has been sexually attracted to underage persons almost exclusively in his life or who turns to a child as a result of stresses in his adult sexual or marital relationships. Those offenders who are sexually attracted exclusively to children show a slight preference for boys over girls, yet these same individuals are uninterested in adult homosexual relationships. In fact, they frequently express a strong sexual aversion to adult males

Groth, A. Nicholas; Birnbaum, H Jean. “Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons.� Archives of Sexual Behavior 7 no. 3 (1978): 175-181. Abstract available online at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... ids=666571.
The point is, most child molesters are either molesting their own children, which means they are obviously not too gay to have sex with women, or they are uninterested in males or females of adult age. Somebody who is out of the closet gay means that not only is that person attracted to adult men, but more than likely somebody secure enough in their sexuality that they would not regress and resort to molestation due to bad sexual experiences as an adult. For an adult male to out himself means that he has dealt with his sexual issues being the most discriminated against category in the mainstream world - I think he is less of a threat than the extremely zealous Christian scout leader proselytizing to other people's children. There is a certain amount of instability that comes with fundamentalist Christianity that makes them far more disturbing to me than somebody who happened to be born attracted to their own gender.

The argument you make is basically the same as saying you wouldn't trust a straight man to babysit your female children because they are attracted to female adults. I find my wife very attractive (I even did when she was underage!) but now that we are no longer sophomores in high school and my little sister is, I don't get the urge to leave my wife for my sister's friends that come over. People are attracted, more or less, to people their own age and claiming otherwise is ismply disguised and rationalized bigotry[/quote]

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