predestination
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jgh7
predestination
Post #1This is something I'm struggling with. The way I understand it, God predestined before He made the earth who He would save and who He would not. I definitely see that this is how the bible puts it, whether it be Paul (Ephesians 1:3-14), or Jesus (John 6:44). It is appears to be completely out of our hands whether we are saved or not. Either God chooses us to be saved or He chooses us to go to Hell. Why should I bother caring about who should be saved or not then? It's all been determined by God. Why should I even blame humans for something that is completely out of their control? The sinner destined to Hell is really no better than the sinner that I am. I perhaps am just fortunate enough that God chose to save me, and I guess the other sinner is just unlucky. Or perhaps I am unknowingly destined for Hell as well. In any case, what sense does any of this make? Our actions are completely pointless when it comes to being saved. It's solely up to God. Are we supposed to view this as wonderful awe-inspiring mercy, because it just makes no sense to me for God to predestine to sentence many humans to eternal punishment.
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ChristianGuy
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Post #2
I think that you are mistaken my friend. First of all, if this was true it would mean that the Bible lied in John 3:16 where it states "that who ever beieves in him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
In Ephesians.
Paul clearly identifies his audience as the Ephesians in the first verse and they were Jews!
1:12 says: "We who were the first to hope in Christ..." this is a clear remark that identifies the Jews. The people who were PREDESTINED to fullfill the prophesy of the birth of Jesus.
1:13 - " You, however, were INCLUDED..." notice the shift in audience here. He is no longer speaking of the Jews, but to the Gentiles! He then goes onto to say how they (gentiles) were saved by hearing the word and believing on it.
A similar case occurs in Romans 8:29-30:
-"for those God foreknew he also predestined...and those he predestined..."
Now, lets look back at Romans 2:17 to see who he is talking to. (keep in mind that there is no shift in audience between Romans 2 and Romans 8.)
Romans 2:17..."Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God..."
And again in Romans 7 he confirms who he is talking to...
"those who are familiar with the Law."
Paul is talking to the Jews!
He even goes on to tell you three different times exactly how to be Saved in the same book!
Romans 1:16&17
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 3:21-23
21"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
The Bible DID NOT used to have chapters and verses that seperated passages. It was written as each individual book from front to back. The chapters and verse were implemented much later to make it easier to remember the locations of certain scriptures. The chapters and verses, however, DO NOT indicate a change in thought or in audience at all. I'm
John 6:44 is not even a feasible argument in this case, as it says nothing of predestination and Jesus goes onto say, "therefore, everyone who has learned from the Father comes to me." You see, Jesus himself dismisses this point by further explaining his statement and in 6:47 he says "Most assuredly, I say unto you, he who believes in me has everlasting life."
It does not say he who is predestined to believe in me has everlasting life.
Why don't we quit letting John Calvin interpret the Bible and let the Bible Interpret it's self?
Don't loose faith in God over a mis interpretation. Rather, Ask, Seek, and Knock.
Hope I helped.
In Ephesians.
Paul clearly identifies his audience as the Ephesians in the first verse and they were Jews!
1:12 says: "We who were the first to hope in Christ..." this is a clear remark that identifies the Jews. The people who were PREDESTINED to fullfill the prophesy of the birth of Jesus.
1:13 - " You, however, were INCLUDED..." notice the shift in audience here. He is no longer speaking of the Jews, but to the Gentiles! He then goes onto to say how they (gentiles) were saved by hearing the word and believing on it.
A similar case occurs in Romans 8:29-30:
-"for those God foreknew he also predestined...and those he predestined..."
Now, lets look back at Romans 2:17 to see who he is talking to. (keep in mind that there is no shift in audience between Romans 2 and Romans 8.)
Romans 2:17..."Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God..."
And again in Romans 7 he confirms who he is talking to...
"those who are familiar with the Law."
Paul is talking to the Jews!
He even goes on to tell you three different times exactly how to be Saved in the same book!
Romans 1:16&17
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 3:21-23
21"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
The Bible DID NOT used to have chapters and verses that seperated passages. It was written as each individual book from front to back. The chapters and verse were implemented much later to make it easier to remember the locations of certain scriptures. The chapters and verses, however, DO NOT indicate a change in thought or in audience at all. I'm
John 6:44 is not even a feasible argument in this case, as it says nothing of predestination and Jesus goes onto say, "therefore, everyone who has learned from the Father comes to me." You see, Jesus himself dismisses this point by further explaining his statement and in 6:47 he says "Most assuredly, I say unto you, he who believes in me has everlasting life."
It does not say he who is predestined to believe in me has everlasting life.
Why don't we quit letting John Calvin interpret the Bible and let the Bible Interpret it's self?
Don't loose faith in God over a mis interpretation. Rather, Ask, Seek, and Knock.
Hope I helped.
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justifyothers
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Re: predestination
Post #3You have stumbled into the disguisting theology of calvinism. You are correct to feel this way. It creates the picture of a sadistic God, creating lives that serve no other purpose than to suffer eternally for something they had absolutely no control over. In other words, according to calvin, the most repentive and changed soul has no chance, if he was not chosen, (might I add, by no apparant system), to be redeemed.jgh7 wrote:This is something I'm struggling with. The way I understand it, God predestined before He made the earth who He would save and who He would not. I definitely see that this is how the bible puts it, whether it be Paul (Ephesians 1:3-14), or Jesus (John 6:44). It is appears to be completely out of our hands whether we are saved or not. Either God chooses us to be saved or He chooses us to go to Hell. Why should I bother caring about who should be saved or not then? It's all been determined by God. Why should I even blame humans for something that is completely out of their control? The sinner destined to Hell is really no better than the sinner that I am. I perhaps am just fortunate enough that God chose to save me, and I guess the other sinner is just unlucky. Or perhaps I am unknowingly destined for Hell as well. In any case, what sense does any of this make? Our actions are completely pointless when it comes to being saved. It's solely up to God. Are we supposed to view this as wonderful awe-inspiring mercy, because it just makes no sense to me for God to predestine to sentence many humans to eternal punishment.
Does your church teach this? If so......RUN AWAY FAST!!
If you like to use the bible to validate your own beliefs, I can give you a contradictive verse for each one you find supporting predestination. I'm glad you are appalled, but do not despair - it is only one of many christain theologies.
Re: predestination
Post #4Romans 9:19-20:jgh7 wrote:This is something I'm struggling with. The way I understand it, God predestined before He made the earth who He would save and who He would not. I definitely see that this is how the bible puts it, whether it be Paul (Ephesians 1:3-14), or Jesus (John 6:44). It is appears to be completely out of our hands whether we are saved or not. Either God chooses us to be saved or He chooses us to go to Hell. Why should I bother caring about who should be saved or not then? It's all been determined by God. Why should I even blame humans for something that is completely out of their control?
"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"
That's correct. We're all equally guilty.The sinner destined to Hell is really no better than the sinner that I am.
I suppose you could say that, but I think it puts an element of chance in there which doesn't exist.I perhaps am just fortunate enough that God chose to save me, and I guess the other sinner is just unlucky.
If you're not sure where you're going, then you need to beg God to show you. The Bible says in Romans 8:16 that "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God". It is possible to know whether or not you're elect.Or perhaps I am unknowingly destined for Hell as well.
Our actions aren't pointless. Rather, they are fruits of the state of being elect--they will arise from the grace of God working in our lives. Just like the fruits of the Spirit arise from walking with the Spirit.In any case, what sense does any of this make? Our actions are completely pointless when it comes to being saved. It's solely up to God.
Even from a non-Calvinistic perspective, God knew he was going to send people to hell when he created the universe. That is, of course, unless you're an advocate of either open theism, where God chooses not to be omniscient, or universalism, where God chooses to save everyone. Or atheism, where there is no God to send anyone to hell.Are we supposed to view this as wonderful awe-inspiring mercy, because it just makes no sense to me for God to predestine to sentence many humans to eternal punishment.
There's a thread over in the theology section which discusses this topic. Andymc and I are currently hashing it out. I invite you to join in and ask if you have any questions.
Post #5
This is the way predestination was explained to me and I have always thought it to be a very solid view.
God is outside of time where as we are bound to live in it. So imagine that time is a pencil and you are God. When you look at time (the pencil) you don't see it as just the moment you are in. You are not bound to the human finite view of time. You see the whole thing as one entity which you may in fact be able to turn and look at from different angles.
With that being said, God knows who will be invited into heaven, because He can see the beginning and end of the pencil at the same time. He is not limiting it to just a certain number of people in the case, He just knows what will happen..
Make any sense?
God is outside of time where as we are bound to live in it. So imagine that time is a pencil and you are God. When you look at time (the pencil) you don't see it as just the moment you are in. You are not bound to the human finite view of time. You see the whole thing as one entity which you may in fact be able to turn and look at from different angles.
With that being said, God knows who will be invited into heaven, because He can see the beginning and end of the pencil at the same time. He is not limiting it to just a certain number of people in the case, He just knows what will happen..
Make any sense?
Post #7
But it's not Scriptural. Read the book of Romans.joer wrote:Good or Evil, Your Choice
The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man's ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality.
Post #8
A friend of mine recently wrote this. I like it because even though we are predestined to become one with God again, (We come from God. we return to God. BUT we are given a choice!), We add to the infiniteness and unending expansion of God within our being and experience as creatures of God's Creation. And the gift of Free Will is How God allowed us to give Him a Unique Gift. Here's my friends stuff:
...Being human, when we go searching for guidance, We are wont to focus our attention externally. We look for authoritative sources like pastors, or gurus, or even the good old Urantia Book! The fact is, Father has sprinkled shards of truth so generously, that inquisitive minds can be tantalized from literally anywhere the search begins.
The “larger� truth seems often to escape us, and that is our uniqueness. So, let me begin right there.
God, as First Source and Center, is of course infinite, and unlimited. But even being “unlimited� has its limit; you cannot experience growth. ..God devised a plan for escaping the “prison� of absoluteness. That plan was us. God’s plan was to create children who, though created from perfection, with inherited perfection potentials, were given an even more precious gift IMPERFECTION!
Whoa! How can that be? You ask. Well, since God’s only true limitation is being able to experience growth, his gift of imperfection opens up the possibility to share in that growth. And, being a free will system, God assures that his kids, in their search for Him, ultimately find Him because of Love, not duty.
[The Bible gives] ... us a sort of terrain map. Our exact location on this map is not so important as how we make our plans to traverse it. Remember, the only gift we have to give to God, is our growth experience that we share with Him. We’ve started as far from Perfection as is possible, while still retaining the possibility of eventually attaining that goal. Each stumbling journey strengthens our stride, and enhances our skills. All our mini-struggles are summed in God the Supreme, and ultimately in the First Source and Center. So, taking a “shortcut�, only would limit our growth, and therefore our gift.
This also helps clarify another of our misconceptions. Some of us are born rich, some poor. Some have vigorous health, some suffer from birth. How is that in any way fair?
Once again, imperfection is the gift. Those who apparently given the least, in reality have the most to give back, while those who appear to have been born into the privilege of wealth and even mental brilliance, enjoy but a limited opportunity. Those who seem most gifted, are usually the most limited by their material focus and attachments. They see themselves as smarter, and of greater importance, and may tend to be more complacent and less introspective than those who look for spiritual answers instead.
Would it not be the ultimate in unfairness, if finding God was based on how smart, or how rich we are? Thankfully, the playing field is level, and God has made sure we each have our own unique path back to our Source. So, let’s walk that path, and join hands with our Divine Partner to get us over or around the obstacles while maintaining our balance.
That's it. I like his prespective!
God Bless and guide all at this site!
...Being human, when we go searching for guidance, We are wont to focus our attention externally. We look for authoritative sources like pastors, or gurus, or even the good old Urantia Book! The fact is, Father has sprinkled shards of truth so generously, that inquisitive minds can be tantalized from literally anywhere the search begins.
The “larger� truth seems often to escape us, and that is our uniqueness. So, let me begin right there.
God, as First Source and Center, is of course infinite, and unlimited. But even being “unlimited� has its limit; you cannot experience growth. ..God devised a plan for escaping the “prison� of absoluteness. That plan was us. God’s plan was to create children who, though created from perfection, with inherited perfection potentials, were given an even more precious gift IMPERFECTION!
Whoa! How can that be? You ask. Well, since God’s only true limitation is being able to experience growth, his gift of imperfection opens up the possibility to share in that growth. And, being a free will system, God assures that his kids, in their search for Him, ultimately find Him because of Love, not duty.
[The Bible gives] ... us a sort of terrain map. Our exact location on this map is not so important as how we make our plans to traverse it. Remember, the only gift we have to give to God, is our growth experience that we share with Him. We’ve started as far from Perfection as is possible, while still retaining the possibility of eventually attaining that goal. Each stumbling journey strengthens our stride, and enhances our skills. All our mini-struggles are summed in God the Supreme, and ultimately in the First Source and Center. So, taking a “shortcut�, only would limit our growth, and therefore our gift.
This also helps clarify another of our misconceptions. Some of us are born rich, some poor. Some have vigorous health, some suffer from birth. How is that in any way fair?
Once again, imperfection is the gift. Those who apparently given the least, in reality have the most to give back, while those who appear to have been born into the privilege of wealth and even mental brilliance, enjoy but a limited opportunity. Those who seem most gifted, are usually the most limited by their material focus and attachments. They see themselves as smarter, and of greater importance, and may tend to be more complacent and less introspective than those who look for spiritual answers instead.
Would it not be the ultimate in unfairness, if finding God was based on how smart, or how rich we are? Thankfully, the playing field is level, and God has made sure we each have our own unique path back to our Source. So, let’s walk that path, and join hands with our Divine Partner to get us over or around the obstacles while maintaining our balance.
That's it. I like his prespective!
God Bless and guide all at this site! Post #10
Hi Skyler! Nice to meet you brother. I love your posts.Skyler wrote:But it's not Scriptural. Read the book of Romans.joer wrote:Good or Evil, Your Choice
The free will of evolving man or exquisite angel is not a mere philosophic concept, a symbolic ideal. Man's ability to choose good or evil is a universe reality.
Just find the Scripture supporting Free Will, That should help. jgh7 is right How is the Loving God, Our Father in heaven who so unconditionally loves us going to torture us in HELL FOR EVER. No way man!
There was a Christian here a year or two ago who found an excellent scripture and provided an enlighten understanding of it showing the Hell isn't eternal. I think it's in Romans.
What would you like to see from Scripture Skyler? Support of the concept of Free Will?
It seems to me the answer to Predestination is Sovereign Choice, "Free Will". God gave us a wonderful gift. we can choose a Predetermined Path. We can accept His Freely Offered Salvation or we can choose to suffer or experience the Consequences of Refusing Eternal Life. If we had no choice we would be automatons and God would have made us perfectly Good. But by giving us a choice our gift to him is much more valuable. because we don't have to give him our eternal Life dedicated to Service to Him and our brethren.
I don't want to get you off track Skyler because I so enjoy the eloquence of your logic and reasoning within the Religious Conceptual Frames of reference. It's truly a blessing to watch you and all here present there uniquely God given personalities express themselves while maintaining adherence to the Will of Our father.
It's a blessing to converse with you. Tell what you want, from Scripture and I will search for it. In God's Love I am in your service.
Thank You jgh7 for your excellent question and everybody here for all these GREAT responses!
Last edited by joer on Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
