Is it "sinful" to look at photos of unclothed huma

[Zzyzx]

.

"Are you suggesting that "god" is NOT willing to forgive if a person repeats the same 'sin' too often?"

Yes I think so since repeating the sin too often suggests no real repentance in the first place. Like times I have told God I'm sorry for looking at naked women on the Internet then turn around and do it again, over and over. I'm not really sorry, I'm just saying sorry to use like a lucky charm against punishment.

The implication by Grand Pbuh is that looking at nude photographs is "sinful" and requires "repentance" and "forgiveness".

Questions for debate:

1. Do you agree or disagree or offer a different answer? Explain your reasoning.

2. Under what conditions is looking at nude photos "sinful" (or evil, or undesirable)?

3. What biblical instruction prohibits looking at photos?

4. Is it also "sinful" for a religious person to look at unclothed people in person?

5. Is it "wrong" (or "sinful") for a non-religious person to look at nude people or photos? Who makes that determination?

6. Is it more "sinful" to look at photos than to look at actual unclothed people or vice versa?

7. Must one stop looking at nude photos or people completely in order to be "forgiven"?

8. Is this issue an example of human behavior or nature being condemned by religion?

[Beto]

I'm waiting for Grand Pbuh to retract previous assertions on masturbation being a homosexual behavior, unless he can provide a reasonable argument as to how a man, when having sex with a woman, isn't also pleasuring himself ("pleasuring himself" being the basis of his "reasoning"). I hope he doesn't leave the forum just because he can't bring himself to admit one mistake.

[FinalEnigma]

Is your position 1? or 2?

1) a lack of desire to look at naked women indicates mental illness.

or

2) a desire to avoid looking at naked women indicates mental illness.

I wasn't sure so thought I would ask to clarify
If it is one I would be a guy who disagrees with you.
if two I might still disagree. a learned aversion to something isn't a mental illness.

I totally agree with one unless that man is gay. If you do not find enjoyment at looking at a naked woman, could you please explain why? I think this runs very counter to nature, so I'd like to know how this could be.

I will say this-I have never looked at a naked woman(or a picture or image thereof) with a particular feeling of enjoyment or desire. I don't have a dislike of it-I just don't terribly care. I can actually watch porn and not be interested. (In fact, active porn is a turn-off for me(I think. I haven't watched much as it doesn't interest me). Naked photos-I just don't care.)

as to why, I don't know. that's about as meaningful a question as 'why don't you like to look at blank orange papers?"

I'd be happy to answer a more possible question though

And before you ask, No I'm not gay either.

Personally I think all o' y'all are the 'mentally ill' ones for wanting to watch other people have sex.(attempting to be humorous)

Anyway, to answer the original question- No, its not a sin, but it is pointless(at least for me, unless it is a part of art and someone just happens to be naked).

[Fallibleone]

I'm not sure what my being a woman has got to do with it. It is true that in the majority of men sexual desire can be said to be 'very strong'. But that is not true for all men. It is not even true for all healthy men. There are variations in this instance just like there are everywhere. Equally, to say that in a normal woman the desire to have children is very strong would be a generalisation that is not true for every 'normal' woman. It very much depends on what you class as 'normal'.

First off, if you were a guy I don't know that you'd disagree with me. So I think your not being a guy may play a role in your argument. That's all, no big deal (I hope)...

I can't say, not being a man, whether I would disagree with you or not either. However, I do know several men who would.

Comparing desire for sex in men with desire for children in women is not fair. Very few women go through their lives without bearing any children. Those that don't probably weren't selected by a man they found to be acceptable. A woman who has a mate and still refrains from reproducing does so for intellectual reasons. And the desire to have sex in men is anything but intellectual; hence all the kids in the world (especially in America) that are raised with absent fathers.

I think that there are a couple of points I would like to make here. I think consideration should be given to the possibility that a strong desire to have children is by no means the only thing which leads to women having children. One also needs to factor in the rather considerable pressure of the need to conform in oneself or the encouragement to conform from others. In other words, there exist many women who have children not so much from a strong desire to do so, but because it is (and was in the past) considered to be the 'done thing'. You get a boyfriend, get married and have children. Even today this tends to be the way of things in many parts. Therefore I believe that it would be a mistake to assume that all women who have children do so because they have this strong desire. The other point I would like to make is that women also choose not to have children for many reasons. One reason might be intellectual (what is it that you mean by that term?), but there are many others - health, financial situation, rockiness of relationship, childhood issues of ones own and so on. Besides that, I don't quite see how your explanation of how this makes a comparison to a man's sexual desire unfair works. After all, the desire to have children which some women possess is hardly intellectual either. Perhaps I am missing the point.

Many men maintain that they find such images unenjoyable because when nothing is left to the imagination, it does nothing for them. In any event, I don't see how either of your points clarfy your earlier point that any man who does not want to look at naked women is mentally ill.

Well, the viewing of photos are likely boring if a man's sexual desires are satisfied.

I sense a shifting of goalposts here. I hope you don't mind me saying so. First, men who were not gay but did not want to look at pictures of naked women were mentally ill. Then healthy and young men who were not gay but did not want to look at pictures of naked women were mentally ill. Now all healthy, young men who are not gay and who are not sexually satisfied but do not want to look at pictures of naked women are mentally ill. Personally I tend to work off people as distinct individuals, rather than ascribing traits in general terms, because you can bet that whatever rule you use to describe a certain group, someone will always pop up and say 'not me!' - although I do understand how it is sometimes beneficial to generalise.

But for it to be averse to a man to look at naked women is preposterous, unless there is something wrong with them.

Well I'm not arguing that an adverse reaction to pictures of naked women is 'normal'. Simply that some men will see pictures of naked women and go 'meh...doesn't do anything for me, I'm afraid', and that this does not constitute a mental illness.

I don't normally discuss these subjects with others, although I would enjoy it. I just love controversy. But if you poll all the men you know, or find any research to indictate that there is even one man who isn't gay and dislikes looking at naked women, I'd like to hear about it.

I don't have any research - perhaps I should look for some. But, and I totally understand the reluctance to take anecdotal evidence for evidence of anything, I do indeed know men (a few of them I've known intimately) who, although they do not actively dislike looking at pictures of naked women, also don't see anything to write home about and would rather look at pictures of partially clothed women. Now of course I cannot vouch for their mental health, but I do take issue with the argument that this matter of personal taste alone makes someone mentally ill.

The one argument that you make that I will completely concede to is in regard to seeing women naked takes away from the imagination. So I'll give you that.

Agreement is nice.

The whole point of the "mentally ill" part is in regard to the pseudo-ethics of the religious that demonize normal human behavior. Others on this thread consider looking at naked women as sinful and they actually pray for the strength to not look at them. That is mental illness...

Ah well I agree totally with the point you are making about seeing a natural urge or action as in some way morally bad because God said so. That to me too is incomprehensible. To attempt to make oneself ignore a natural pleasure which one is drawn towards is certainly not condusive to good mental health in my opinion. This is a bit different from just not being that bothered though.

[FinalEnigma]

I can't say, not being a man, whether I would disagree with you or not either. However, I do know several men who would.

Like me! well, not that you really know me.

Many men maintain that they find such images unenjoyable because when nothing is left to the imagination, it does nothing for them. In any event, I don't see how either of your points clarfy your earlier point that any man who does not want to look at naked women is mentally ill.

Well, the viewing of photos are likely boring if a man's sexual desires are satisfied.

I sense a shifting of goalposts here. I hope you don't mind me saying so. First, men who were not gay but did not want to look at pictures of naked women were mentally ill. Then healthy and young men who were not gay but did not want to look at pictures of naked women were mentally ill. Now all healthy, young men who are not gay and who are not sexually satisfied but do not want to look at pictures of naked women are mentally ill. Personally I tend to work off people as distinct individuals, rather than ascribing traits in general terms, because you can bet that whatever rule you use to describe a certain group, someone will always pop up and say 'not me!' - although I do understand how it is sometimes beneficial to do generalise.

But for it to be averse to a man to look at naked women is preposterous, unless there is something wrong with them.

Well I'm not arguing that an adverse reaction to pictures of naked women is 'normal'. Simply that some men will see pictures of naked women and go 'meh...doesn't do anything for me, I'm afraid', and that this does not constitute a mental illness.

That's where I'm at. 'meh'.

I don't have any research - perhaps I should look for some. But, and I totally understand the reluctance to take anecdotal evidence for evidence of anything, I do indeed know men (a few of them I've known intimately) who, although they do not actively dislike looking at pictures of naked women, also don't see anything to write home about and would rather look at pictures of partially clothed women.

This isn't it either. Partially clothed women don't do any more for me than unclothed women. or fully clothed women either for that matter. (and as I said, I'm not gay, so unclothed men don't do anything for me either.)

Now of course I cannot vouch for their mental health, but I do take issue with the argument that this matter of personal taste alone makes someone mentally ill.

Indeed. So do i.

[Fallibleone]

This isn't it either. Partially clothed women don't do any more for me than unclothed women. or fully clothed women either for that matter. (and as I said, I'm not gay, so unclothed men don't do anything for me either.)

Yep, so again, an individual with characteristics, or likes and dislikes, which differ even more from the stereotypical idea of what gets a man going. Personally speaking I love all this diversity. Maybe that's just because I'm weird and it makes me feel at home.

[Cathar1950]

I have read that chemicals do effect the sex drive and I am sure it is more of a continuum then an either/or.
Much of it is culturally condition as well as related to personal experiences and I have read that our love maps are often pretty well set up before we are 6 years old.
I would think given our millions of years of evolution some of it is genetics and biology as it relates to our sex drive or desires to procreate.
How it all plays out is varied.

[Cathar1950]

I'm waiting for Grand Pbuh to retract previous assertions on masturbation being a homosexual behavior, unless he can provide a reasonable argument as to how a man, when having sex with a woman, isn't also pleasuring himself ("pleasuring himself" being the basis of his "reasoning"). I hope he doesn't leave the forum just because he can't bring himself to admit one mistake.

I am wondering if he is going to tell us he never masturbated or that he is no longer gay. Maybe he was just experimenting and was unsure of his orientation.

[Lionspoint]

I can't say, not being a man, whether I would disagree with you or not either. However, I do know several men who would.

I've already been proven wrong here. No big deal. So 99.99999999999999% of men will still likely agree with me.

I think consideration should be given to the possibility that a strong desire to have children is by no means the only thing which leads to women having children. One also needs to factor in the rather considerable pressure of the need to conform in oneself or the encouragement to conform from others. In other words, there exist many women who have children not so much from a strong desire to do so, but because it is (and was in the past) considered to be the 'done thing'. You get a boyfriend, get married and have children. Even today this tends to be the way of things in many parts. Therefore I believe that it would be a mistake to assume that all women who have children do so because they have this strong desire.

In the industrialized west, excluding places where education is a thing of the past (ahem, America), any woman that elects to reproduce out of a feeling of pressure is quite perverse. Maybe it is a sign that we need to work to increase the self-worth of women in general.

The other point I would like to make is that women also choose not to have children for many reasons. One reason might be intellectual (what is it that you mean by that term?)

Here is your answer...

but there are many others - health, financial situation, rockiness of relationship, childhood issues of ones own and so on.

After all, the desire to have children which some women possess is hardly intellectual either.

I agree totally. The desire men feel to engage in sex (hence reproduce) and women's desire to have children to nurture (also reproduce) are both natural and good. The comparison I was making was the general comparison between both sexes wanting to reproduce but for different reasons. But a woman who decides to remain childless is based upon intellect while a man who feels no desire by looking at a naked woman is not intellectually founded (at least almost all the time). If I haven't made this clear yet, I won't be able to...

Well, the viewing of photos are likely boring if a man's sexual desires are satisfied.

Boring was too strong a word. I should have used "not as interesting".

I sense a shifting of goalposts here. I hope you don't mind me saying so. First, men who were not gay but did not want to look at pictures of naked women were mentally ill. Then healthy and young men who were not gay but did not want to look at pictures of naked women were mentally ill. Now all healthy, young men who are not gay and who are not sexually satisfied but do not want to look at pictures of naked women are mentally ill.

At no point have I conceded to the idea that a man should not be aroused by looking at a naked woman. Is that a double-negative? Basically, certain men in certain situations might not be as aroused, but it should definately be firing off pleasure receptors.

Personally I tend to work off people as distinct individuals, rather than ascribing traits in general terms, because you can bet that whatever rule you use to describe a certain group, someone will always pop up and say 'not me!' - although I do understand how it is sometimes beneficial to generalise.

I agree as well, although it is easier to examine the rule rather than the exception. I usually infer to the idea that plants eat animals, but only if the only plant you study is the Venus Flytrap. Then, you are correct in your subjective study, but almost totally wrong objectively.

Well I'm not arguing that an adverse reaction to pictures of naked women is 'normal'. Simply that some men will see pictures of naked women and go 'meh...doesn't do anything for me, I'm afraid', and that this does not constitute a mental illness.

Well, i've already been proven wrong, except to reiterate that I think 99.a lot more nines% of men would see it my way. And maybe the women they were looking at were "meh" (not attractive).

...I do indeed know men (a few of them I've known intimately) who, although they do not actively dislike looking at pictures of naked women, also don't see anything to write home about and would rather look at pictures of partially clothed women. Now of course I cannot vouch for their mental health, but I do take issue with the argument that this matter of personal taste alone makes someone mentally ill.

I agree with you there and I appreciate looking at women in various stages of undress. It definately adds to the suspense. And I'm not apt to call anyone you know mentally ill. But if they don't enjoy looking at naked women, then I am certainly suprised. Maybe they are being slightly disingenuous to improve their standings?

Ah well I agree totally with the point you are making about seeing a natural urge or action as in some way morally bad because God said so. That to me too is incomprehensible. To attempt to make oneself ignore a natural pleasure which one is drawn towards is certainly not condusive to good mental health in my opinion. This is a bit different from just not being that bothered though.

Yup, this one I knew we wouldn't need to discuss...

[cnorman18]

This discussion strikes me as just a tiny bit bizarre. Sexual preferences and "turn-ons" are as wildly different and varied as the features on people's faces. Some guys are turned on by sexy lingerie, some by bikinis, some by total nudity, some by dirty talk, and some by raincoats, for all I know. Me, I like 'em all, but by this standard, I guess I'm "hyper-normal"; I think a nude woman is the most beautiful thing God ever made - and I mean nude. For me, toenail polish spoils the effect. Fat or skinny, young or old (but not aged) - if she's bare, I'm there. Different strokes, you know?

I think "mentally ill" should apply only to the real fringes: necrophilia, coprophagy (look it up; I'm not gonna tell you), bestiality, and like that. If you like looking at fat Asian chicks wearing overalls , scuba masks and Mouseketeer ears, you might be a little kinky, but mentally ill? Nah.

Thinking you're gay because you masturbate - maybe. That's weird.

[Lionspoint]

I think "mentally ill" should apply only to the real fringes: necrophilia, coprophagy (look it up; I'm not gonna tell you), bestiality, and like that. If you like looking at fat Asian chicks wearing overalls , scuba masks and Mouseketeer ears, you might be a little kinky, but mentally ill? Nah.

I looked it up and that is wrong... reminds me of a certain video I watched several months ago... shudder...moving on...

Bestiality, necrophilia and things like that I don't think are natural desires of humans. But men enjoying looking at naked women is normal and men that don't enjoy looking at naked women are abnormal. Except for .0000000000001% of men who for whatever reason don't enjoy looking at naked women but might enjoy them in other regards...