Proselytization Requires Proof

[Zzyzx]

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Proselytization Requires Proof

Believe whatever you like. That is no one’s business but your own.

However, when you attempt to convince others to believe or worship as you suggest or demand, you are ethically and intellectually required to furnish reason (acceptable to the person) to conclude that you speak truth – and they are intellectually required to ask for proof.

Christians have no proof – only an old book of tales by Bronze Age storytellers (all else is emotional appeal).

Notice that the opposition (the dreaded “Atheists� and other “heretics�) does NOT proselytize a belief system. Non-belief is not a belief in spite of religionists’ ill informed attempts to make it appear so.

[Fisherking]

The whole point I am trying to establish is, if you can believe that an invisible force like love exists, why can't you also believe that in invisible God might also exist? The two concepts are not all that different.

Love is not an invisible force. Love is a product of human minds, an emotion.
God is not an invisible force. God has been described as a spirit, an intelligence, a person (or three persons). The two concepts are really quite different.

Yes, love, the emotion is, in the strictest terms, a chemical reaction. We can see its results through by certain hormones and chemicals being emitted by the brain. It is an observable, physical occurrence.

It should be fairly easy to induce love in someone then, by manipulating "certain hormones and chemicals" the brain emits.

[Zzyzx]

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It should be fairly easy to induce love in someone then, by manipulating "certain hormones and chemicals" the brain emits.

Thank you for raising the issue, Fisherking.

Yes, it should be possible to induce love just as it is possible to induce religious experience using stimulation through chemicals or electricity.

The latest discovery is the arrangement of molecules in this chemicals and the whole world is excited because now, like the witches of the yore, we can actually concoct love potions. In other words, mankind could be on its way to isolating the chemical compound and making drugs that can induce these reactions in us, in other words….you take the drug, and you fall in love with the next person you see. Imagine the chaos that the world will face. But the scientists say that as of now, this discovery will be used to find out how it can help in some other chemical reactions, to cure disease or other, more useful pursuits and research (though everyone agrees what can be more useful than making someone fall with in love you!!!!)
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-27-2004-52238.asp

The scans showed increased blood flow in areas of the brain with high concentrations of receptors for dopamine -- associated with states of euphoria, craving and addiction. High levels of dopamine are also associated with norepinephrine, which heightens attention, short-term memory, hyperactivity, sleeplessness and goal-oriented behavior. In other words, couples in this stage of love focus intently on the relationship and often on little else.

Another possible explanation for the intense focus and idealizing view that occurs in the attraction stage comes from researchers at University College London. They discovered that people in love have lower levels of serotonin and also that neural circuits associated with the way we assess others are suppressed. These lower serotonin levels are the same as those found in people with obsessive-compulsive disorders, possibly explaining why those in love "obsess" about their partner.
http://people.howstuffworks.com/love6.htm

Scientists are beginning to make sense of romantic love through modern imaging techniques and a multidisciplinary approach. Michael Gross uncovers the method behind the madness

In Short

MRI scans have shown that love lights up parts of the brain linked to the reward system that can cause drug addiction
Early stage romantic love activates different parts of the brain to sex drive and attachment
Falling in love appears to reduce serotonin levels in the blood in a similar way to obsessive-compulsive disorders
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issue ... mistry.asp

Likewise, there are studies that demonstrate that religious experience can be chemically or electrically induced.

This article describes such states of consciousness induced by psychedelic drugs, although they are virtually indistinguishable from genuine mystical experience. The article then discusses objections to the use of psychedelic drugs that arise mainly from the opposition between mystical values and the traditional religious and secular values of Western society.
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/watts.htm

To seal the case for the temporal lobe’s involvement, Michael Persinger of Laurentian University in Ontario sought to artificially re-create religious feelings by electrically stimulating that large subdivision of the brain. So Persinger created the “God helmet,� which generates weak electromagnetic fields and focuses them on particular regions of the brain’s surface.

In a series of studies conducted over the past several decades, Persinger and his team have trained their device on the temporal lobes of hundreds of people. In doing so, the researchers induced in most of them the experience of a sensed presence—a feeling that someone (or a spirit) is in the room when no one, in fact, is—or of a profound state of cosmic bliss that reveals a universal truth. During the three-minute bursts of stimulation, the affected subjects translated this perception of the divine into their own cultural and religious language—terming it God, Buddha, a benevolent presence or the wonder of the universe.

Persinger thus argues that religious experience and belief in God are merely the results of electrical anomalies in the human brain.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=sea ... ain&page=2

also

http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~bhidalgo/litreview.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_religion

What are the implications of this information? If god experiences can be induced chemically or electrically does that indicate that such experiences are NOT produced by “gods� but by the human brain?

If by eating a mushroom you can “see god�, that “god� in my opinion is nothing more than a facet of human imagination.

[JoeyKnothead]

Fisherking wrote:

It should be fairly easy to induce love in someone then, by manipulating "certain hormones and chemicals" the brain emits.

Indeed it is, the drug ecstasy is known for just these effects.

[Thought Criminal]

Do you have a moral code absent a Bible? If the Bible where never written, would you now be running around raping, pillaging and plundering?

Yes, I would. Jesus made me stop doing those things, but I am still far from perfect, as you may have noticed.

So you're basically someone who'd rape, pillage and plunder, held in check only by religion? How odd, since I have no religion yet these elements are conspicuously absent in my life. Does this just mean I'm a much better person than you or is it that I'm normal and you're some sort of monster?

And, no, this really isn't a personal attack. I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here.

TC

[Cathar1950]

Do you have a moral code absent a Bible? If the Bible where never written, would you now be running around raping, pillaging and plundering?

Yes, I would. Jesus made me stop doing those things, but I am still far from perfect, as you may have noticed.

So you're basically someone who'd rape, pillage and plunder, held in check only by religion? How odd, since I have no religion yet these elements are conspicuously absent in my life. Does this just mean I'm a much better person than you or is it that I'm normal and you're some sort of monster?

And, no, this really isn't a personal attack. I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here.

TC

I thought he was saying Jesus keeps him from tossing his friends under the bus like he use to.
He still wants to but Jesus is helping him be perfect.

[Zzyzx]

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Do you have a moral code absent a Bible? If the Bible where never written, would you now be running around raping, pillaging and plundering?

Yes, I would. Jesus made me stop doing those things, but I am still far from perfect, as you may have noticed.

So you're basically someone who'd rape, pillage and plunder, held in check only by religion? How odd, since I have no religion yet these elements are conspicuously absent in my life. Does this just mean I'm a much better person than you or is it that I'm normal and you're some sort of monster?

And, no, this really isn't a personal attack. I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here.

TC

I thought he was saying Jesus keeps him from tossing his friends under the bus like he use to.
He still wants to but Jesus is helping him be perfect.

I have encountered the “only religion keeps me from being a criminal (or monster)� idea quite a few times in debating with fundamentalists / fanatics. I am inclined to believe the people who say that about themselves. They may know that they are not moral and ethical in and of themselves and that they require guidance or threats of punishment in order to act in humane ways.

Perhaps keeping such people from expressing sociopathic behavior is a major contribution of religion. Whether supernaturalism is true or not, if they believe it is true and feel responsible to a “father�, they may behave as “good citizens� in spite of major personality or behavior problems.

That might also account for the many instances of celebrity religionists being exposed as criminals or sexual perverts. If religion is all that keeps them in line and they became rich and famous enough to consider themselves above their religion, they may revert to their basic behavior patterns.

On the other hand, some people who think that only religion keeps them from being criminal may say that only because they have been conditioned, trained or indoctrinated to think that anything good about themselves is “from god� and that such good inclinations must fight “bad impulses� from “Satan� or from other evil or wicked spirits or influences.

One additional thought that comes to mind is that some fundamental religious beliefs emphasize the “evil� nature of humans and emphasize the need for humans to acquire (and pay for) religious services to overcome their “evil nature�. The concept of “original sin� is an example of this teaching. The effect might well be to convince people that they would be “wicked and evil� without the wonderful influence of self-appointed “representatives of god�.

[olavisjo]

So you're basically someone who'd rape, pillage and plunder, held in check only by religion? How odd, since I have no religion yet these elements are conspicuously absent in my life. Does this just mean I'm a much better person than you or is it that I'm normal and you're some sort of monster?

And, no, this really isn't a personal attack. I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here.

TC

Before the age of about 20 I had no concept that there is a difference between right and wrong, laws were for people who could not figure a way around them. Shoplifting was a daily practice and I never got caught. I believed that the world was what it appeared to be, "rational" void of a spiritual side. School did not teach me anything contrary to my point of view, it was all about manipulating people and systems to my advantage. I did not believe there would be a judgement day. Life was about the here and now. I was a small monster who could have easily grown up to be a big monster but, God changed me, he made me realize that every deed and word I do or speak is very important and there is no undo button. I consider myself lucky, I was just bad enough to know that I need help.
You may very well be a much better person than me, but if I were you I would thank God for that and say "There But for the Grace of God go I".

[McCulloch]

I was a small monster who could have easily grown up to be a big monster but, God changed me,

How do you know?
Here are the facts which can be verified: You once were a small monster with anti-social, perhaps even criminal tendencies. You changed. Your belief in God seems to have been a key factor in that change.

How do you know that God changed you? Are you happier being not a monster? If you stopped believing in God, would you revert to monstrous behaviour?

[realthinker]

So you're basically someone who'd rape, pillage and plunder, held in check only by religion? How odd, since I have no religion yet these elements are conspicuously absent in my life. Does this just mean I'm a much better person than you or is it that I'm normal and you're some sort of monster?

And, no, this really isn't a personal attack. I'm trying to understand what you're claiming here.

TC

Before the age of about 20 I had no concept that there is a difference between right and wrong, laws were for people who could not figure a way around them. Shoplifting was a daily practice and I never got caught. I believed that the world was what it appeared to be, "rational" void of a spiritual side. School did not teach me anything contrary to my point of view, it was all about manipulating people and systems to my advantage. I did not believe there would be a judgement day. Life was about the here and now. I was a small monster who could have easily grown up to be a big monster but, God changed me, he made me realize that every deed and word I do or speak is very important and there is no undo button. I consider myself lucky, I was just bad enough to know that I need help.
You may very well be a much better person than me, but if I were you I would thank God for that and say "There But for the Grace of God go I".

What you are describing is maturity. You seem to not have been lead to it by parents and community. Then as you matured you found that what you were doing was not beneficial. It was a risk that mature people don't take. You're not a special story in any fashion.

Please study some of the psychology of maturation. Teens are extraordinarily self-centered and anti-authority. That's the story with any semi-sophisticated mammal. Teens, post pubescent, are rebellious to break the hierarchy between offspring and the adults around them. When that break has been made they settle down and fold themselves back into that hierarchy on the adult level. They have broken the control that others have had on them and then they accept that such controlled behavior, now self imposed, is proper.

You can claim that God reached out to you, but I promise you, you're not unlike a great number of us. I did the shoplifting, the stealing gas. We went for joyrides in people's cars, mostly people we knew. Some friends of mine and I went on a pipe bomb craze for a bit. We smoked, drank, did drugs. But then it hit me that this wasn't going to make me into what I wanted to be. It was a hard, uncomfortable, unsettling life. In short, after awhile it sucked. So I changed. No big deal. I just changed. I left those people behind, moved to another town, and finished college. I still enjoyed those people for awhile after that, on occasion, but it was a threat to my new, more appropriate, more comfortable way of living. I don't talk to them any more. I matured; they didn't.

[OnceConvinced]

Before the age of about 20 I had no concept that there is a difference between right and wrong, laws were for people who could not figure a way around them.

Didn't your parents teach you anything about that?? Surely you knew what you were doing was wrong. Sorry, but I can't believe you were that ignorant. The fact that you knew about the laws meant you weren't that clueless. I begin to wonder just how honest you are being with us. Even the nastiest little shite on the street knows that the stuff they do is wrong, they just don't care and don't want to listen to authority.

You may very well be a much better person than me, but if I were you I would thank God for that and say "There But for the Grace of God go I".

Me, I would thank my parents for teaching me the difference between right and wrong.

Realthinker raises valid points. Another factor that often comes in to the picture when people take the positive steps to change their lives is when they get so fed up with their lives they want to change. Until that point they probably won't change, because they are not motivated enough. They have to have really had a guts full of the way they are. Only then IMO are they going to be able to change. Using religion can be a great way to achieve that especially if you get yourself a support group of friends within the church. Ol, did you ever get to that point in your life where you just had a total gutsful of your life and had to do something about it? If so when did that point arrive?