basics

[umair]

we talk about the details , of religions, and that too mostly from what most of us percieve from our reading through the net, leave it for a while.

lets come back to the basics, and clear them first.

here are some questions, that i have raised many times , but have mostly been neglected by the debators.

FOR CHRISTIANS,

1)CAN GOD COMMIT MISTAKES , AND AFTER THAT ,SUFFER AT THE HANDS OF HIS MISTAKES.

well this is clear from the christian theory, that god took away all burden of sin ,on his crucifiction, now dont say that sin was not a creation of god, otherwise unwantingly you will lead to the creation of another bad/evil god.
ie:was god unaware that if he is creating evil, then he will himself have to take its burden, and that too at the cost of his own so called death.

2)IN THE BIBLE THE CHRIST DOSEN,T CALLS HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD, but calls god as'ABBA'(ie:protector or guardian), then why do the christians project him as one.

3)NIETHER DOES HE CALLS HIMSELF AS GOD, and mostly references which project him as a messenger are found.

4)IF GOD ANYHOW HAD TO COME TO THE EARTH,AND SHOW SUPERNATURAL THINGS, THEN HE WOULD HAVE DIRECTLY DECENDED TO THE EARTH, INSTEAD FROM THE WOMB OF A LADY.
ETC


FOR JEWS,

WELL ,they are a totally diverted community, who consider god to be bound to serve them only, what to speak more of!


INDIAN RELIGIONS,

WELL THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY SUPERNATURAL BEINGS AND THEIR STORIES, AND MOST OF THE INDIAN RELIGIONS ARE A MERE REFORM FROM THE THEN PREVAILING CONDITIONS, BY SOME NOBLE MEN, WHO WERE LATER WORSHIPPED, FOR THEIR PEACE OF THOUGHT.


AND YES I LEAVE ISLAM,UNTO YOU, BECAUSE THAT IS MY PART OF THE DEBATE.

[Goat]

we talk about the details , of religions, and that too mostly from what most of us percieve from our reading through the net, leave it for a while.

lets come back to the basics, and clear them first.

here are some questions, that i have raised many times , but have mostly been neglected by the debators.

FOR CHRISTIANS,

1)CAN GOD COMMIT MISTAKES , AND AFTER THAT ,SUFFER AT THE HANDS OF HIS MISTAKES.

well this is clear from the christian theory, that god took away all burden of sin ,on his crucifiction, now dont say that sin was not a creation of god, otherwise unwantingly you will lead to the creation of another bad/evil god.
ie:was god unaware that if he is creating evil, then he will himself have to take its burden, and that too at the cost of his own so called death.

2)IN THE BIBLE THE CHRIST DOSEN,T CALLS HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD, but calls god as'ABBA'(ie:protector or guardian), then why do the christians project him as one.

3)NIETHER DOES HE CALLS HIMSELF AS GOD, and mostly references which project him as a messenger are found.

4)IF GOD ANYHOW HAD TO COME TO THE EARTH,AND SHOW SUPERNATURAL THINGS, THEN HE WOULD HAVE DIRECTLY DECENDED TO THE EARTH, INSTEAD FROM THE WOMB OF A LADY.
ETC


FOR JEWS,

WELL ,they are a totally diverted community, who consider god to be bound to serve them only, what to speak more of!


INDIAN RELIGIONS,

WELL THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY SUPERNATURAL BEINGS AND THEIR STORIES, AND MOST OF THE INDIAN RELIGIONS ARE A MERE REFORM FROM THE THEN PREVAILING CONDITIONS, BY SOME NOBLE MEN, WHO WERE LATER WORSHIPPED, FOR THEIR PEACE OF THOUGHT.


AND YES I LEAVE ISLAM,UNTO YOU, BECAUSE THAT IS MY PART OF THE DEBATE.

Well, you totally misrepresent both Christianity and Judaism. First of all, you make the false claim that the Jews think God is for them. The concept of the "Chosen" people is not what you are claiming, but the Jewish faith believes they are chosen for extra responsiblties, not to be elevated above others. The Jews believe that god is the father of EVERYONE, and as long as people follow the Noachide laws, they will partake in the world to come. And, by calling 'death to the infidels', isn't that exactly what Islam is doing?

As for the Indian religion talking about sutpernatural beings, well, the Koran talks about the Djinn, who are supernatural beings. This is applying a double standard.
For that matter, Allah is a supernatural being, as well as YWHY. And as for elevating men, that is what I view Muslims do to Mohammad. They honor him to the point of elevating him to a demi-god.

So, you are misrepresenting other religions , and not seeing that some of the accusations you put to the other religions, Islam also does. Hold a mirror up to yourself, and see your own beliefs as others would see them. Hold a mirror up to your self, and then repeat the accusations you make against other religions, and see if the practices you are critizing other religions for are not found in your own religion too.

[umair]

we talk about the details , of religions, and that too mostly from what most of us percieve from our reading through the net, leave it for a while.

lets come back to the basics, and clear them first.

here are some questions, that i have raised many times , but have mostly been neglected by the debators.

FOR CHRISTIANS,

1)CAN GOD COMMIT MISTAKES , AND AFTER THAT ,SUFFER AT THE HANDS OF HIS MISTAKES.

well this is clear from the christian theory, that god took away all burden of sin ,on his crucifiction, now dont say that sin was not a creation of god, otherwise unwantingly you will lead to the creation of another bad/evil god.
ie:was god unaware that if he is creating evil, then he will himself have to take its burden, and that too at the cost of his own so called death.

2)IN THE BIBLE THE CHRIST DOSEN,T CALLS HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD, but calls god as'ABBA'(ie:protector or guardian), then why do the christians project him as one.

3)NIETHER DOES HE CALLS HIMSELF AS GOD, and mostly references which project him as a messenger are found.

4)IF GOD ANYHOW HAD TO COME TO THE EARTH,AND SHOW SUPERNATURAL THINGS, THEN HE WOULD HAVE DIRECTLY DECENDED TO THE EARTH, INSTEAD FROM THE WOMB OF A LADY.
ETC


FOR JEWS,

WELL ,they are a totally diverted community, who consider god to be bound to serve them only, what to speak more of!


INDIAN RELIGIONS,

WELL THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY SUPERNATURAL BEINGS AND THEIR STORIES, AND MOST OF THE INDIAN RELIGIONS ARE A MERE REFORM FROM THE THEN PREVAILING CONDITIONS, BY SOME NOBLE MEN, WHO WERE LATER WORSHIPPED, FOR THEIR PEACE OF THOUGHT.


AND YES I LEAVE ISLAM,UNTO YOU, BECAUSE THAT IS MY PART OF THE DEBATE.

Well, you totally misrepresent both Christianity and Judaism. First of all, you make the false claim that the Jews think God is for them. The concept of the "Chosen" people is not what you are claiming, but the Jewish faith believes they are chosen for extra responsiblties, not to be elevated above others. The Jews believe that god is the father of EVERYONE, and as long as people follow the Noachide laws, they will partake in the world to come. And, by calling 'death to the infidels', isn't that exactly what Islam is doing?

As for the Indian religion talking about sutpernatural beings, well, the Koran talks about the Djinn, who are supernatural beings. This is applying a double standard.
For that matter, Allah is a supernatural being, as well as YWHY. And as for elevating men, that is what I view Muslims do to Mohammad. They honor him to the point of elevating him to a demi-god.

So, you are misrepresenting other religions , and not seeing that some of the accusations you put to the other religions, Islam also does. Hold a mirror up to yourself, and see your own beliefs as others would see them. Hold a mirror up to your self, and then repeat the accusations you make against other religions, and see if the practices you are critizing other religions for are not found in your own religion too.

well, first of all thank you for response,


now here are the specific reasons to your queries,

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

the athiest say , that every thing is bound by nature, and we say that no , everything is bound by the laws of allah(swt)
who is the creator,sustainer and cherisher of the whole of the universe, and he is not bound by time.

the best description of allah(swt) , is found in the quran in surah no,112

in the name of allah the most merciful the most graceful
say he is allah the one and only.
allah,the eternal,the absolute
niether is he born of some one,
nor is someone born of him,
and there is none like unto him.


,well this just similar to the definition of god which possibly you have,and that you know why!

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, or in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.


and yes even we have an extra responsibility like you,but that is to make others aware of the name of allah(swt), and his last messenger muhammed(saw).
and apart from this any one can only be greater in front of allah by his virtues, and no one is born with special favour's. which is against the laws of allah(swt).



and your saying that (islam teaches the killing of the infidels), is absolutely wrong.
if anywhere in the quran or the hadith , you find text regarding killing of infidels, then it is always either for self defence or in wars.


and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

[Wyvern]

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

So Islam is no different than Wicca? You claim that Allah=nature which means you worship nature which is what Wicca does.

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, or in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.

What you are describing is the avatars of hindu gods not the gods themselves.

and your saying that (islam teaches the killing of the infidels), is absolutely wrong.
if anywhere in the quran or the hadith , you find text regarding killing of infidels, then it is always either for self defence or in wars.

Or if they don't pay the infidel tax.

and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

Well this is simply not true, a cartoon showing a caricature of Mohammed causes worldwide rioting among the muslim communities while on the other hand when Iran hosts an art show denigrating these other prophets and their associated religions not a word in protest was heard.

[Goat]

we talk about the details , of religions, and that too mostly from what most of us percieve from our reading through the net, leave it for a while.

lets come back to the basics, and clear them first.

here are some questions, that i have raised many times , but have mostly been neglected by the debators.

FOR CHRISTIANS,

1)CAN GOD COMMIT MISTAKES , AND AFTER THAT ,SUFFER AT THE HANDS OF HIS MISTAKES.

well this is clear from the christian theory, that god took away all burden of sin ,on his crucifiction, now dont say that sin was not a creation of god, otherwise unwantingly you will lead to the creation of another bad/evil god.
ie:was god unaware that if he is creating evil, then he will himself have to take its burden, and that too at the cost of his own so called death.

2)IN THE BIBLE THE CHRIST DOSEN,T CALLS HIMSELF THE SON OF GOD, but calls god as'ABBA'(ie:protector or guardian), then why do the christians project him as one.

3)NIETHER DOES HE CALLS HIMSELF AS GOD, and mostly references which project him as a messenger are found.

4)IF GOD ANYHOW HAD TO COME TO THE EARTH,AND SHOW SUPERNATURAL THINGS, THEN HE WOULD HAVE DIRECTLY DECENDED TO THE EARTH, INSTEAD FROM THE WOMB OF A LADY.
ETC


FOR JEWS,

WELL ,they are a totally diverted community, who consider god to be bound to serve them only, what to speak more of!


INDIAN RELIGIONS,

WELL THEY ARE ALL BOUND BY SUPERNATURAL BEINGS AND THEIR STORIES, AND MOST OF THE INDIAN RELIGIONS ARE A MERE REFORM FROM THE THEN PREVAILING CONDITIONS, BY SOME NOBLE MEN, WHO WERE LATER WORSHIPPED, FOR THEIR PEACE OF THOUGHT.


AND YES I LEAVE ISLAM,UNTO YOU, BECAUSE THAT IS MY PART OF THE DEBATE.

Well, you totally misrepresent both Christianity and Judaism. First of all, you make the false claim that the Jews think God is for them. The concept of the "Chosen" people is not what you are claiming, but the Jewish faith believes they are chosen for extra responsiblties, not to be elevated above others. The Jews believe that god is the father of EVERYONE, and as long as people follow the Noachide laws, they will partake in the world to come. And, by calling 'death to the infidels', isn't that exactly what Islam is doing?

As for the Indian religion talking about sutpernatural beings, well, the Koran talks about the Djinn, who are supernatural beings. This is applying a double standard.
For that matter, Allah is a supernatural being, as well as YWHY. And as for elevating men, that is what I view Muslims do to Mohammad. They honor him to the point of elevating him to a demi-god.

So, you are misrepresenting other religions , and not seeing that some of the accusations you put to the other religions, Islam also does. Hold a mirror up to yourself, and see your own beliefs as others would see them. Hold a mirror up to your self, and then repeat the accusations you make against other religions, and see if the practices you are critizing other religions for are not found in your own religion too.

well, first of all thank you for response,


now here are the specific reasons to your queries,

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

the athiest say , that every thing is bound by nature, and we say that no , everything is bound by the laws of allah(swt)
who is the creator,sustainer and cherisher of the whole of the universe, and he is not bound by time.

the best description of allah(swt) , is found in the quran in surah no,112

in the name of allah the most merciful the most graceful
say he is allah the one and only.
allah,the eternal,the absolute
niether is he born of some one,
nor is someone born of him,
and there is none like unto him.


,well this just similar to the definition of god which possibly you have,and that you know why!

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, or in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.


and yes even we have an extra responsibility like you,but that is to make others aware of the name of allah(swt), and his last messenger muhammed(saw).
and apart from this any one can only be greater in front of allah by his virtues, and no one is born with special favour's. which is against the laws of allah(swt).



and your saying that (islam teaches the killing of the infidels), is absolutely wrong.
if anywhere in the quran or the hadith , you find text regarding killing of infidels, then it is always either for self defence or in wars.


and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

How is Allah NOT a supernatural being? Can you show him to me? Yes, he does not have a representation of a figure. But, did not he create nature, and therefore is above it? How is that not supernatural?

You show me words in a book, very poetic, but the map is not the territory.

[CONVERTED TO ISLAM]

welcome back Umair ,, I miss you so much brother
I love you for Allah
Allah bless you brother

[umair]

"Wyvern"

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

So Islam is no different than Wicca? You claim that Allah=nature which means you worship nature which is what Wicca does.

i guess you missed the next line, that nature is controlled by the laws of allah.

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, or in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.

What you are describing is the avatars of hindu gods not the gods themselves.

but avatars,are the gods themselves.

and your saying that (islam teaches the killing of the infidels), is absolutely wrong.
if anywhere in the quran or the hadith , you find text regarding killing of infidels, then it is always either for self defence or in wars.

Or if they don't pay the infidel tax.

i cant say ,i dont know about this, but will let you know soon(inshallah)

and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

Well this is simply not true, a cartoon showing a caricature of Mohammed causes worldwide rioting among the muslim communities while on the other hand when Iran hosts an art show denigrating these other prophets and their associated religions not a word in protest was heard.

well if it really has been so, then it's a matter of shame for the muslims, but the other aspect is also there , that when those who consider them as gods are doing nothing, then it appears a bit inappropriate to speak.

[Wyvern]

"Wyvern"

in islam allah(swt), is not a specific supernatural being , but is just in comparision to what the atheist call as nature,

So Islam is no different than Wicca? You claim that Allah=nature which means you worship nature which is what Wicca does.

i guess you missed the next line, that nature is controlled by the laws of allah.

Okay, so you are saying nature is controlled by the laws of nature aka allah. I still don't see how this separates you from the wiccans. You call nature Allah, they call it generally the goddess.

but this in comparision to the supernatural gods of the indians is different, as they percieve gods having horns, tails, or in the form of animals, and after that fighting with each other too.

What you are describing is the avatars of hindu gods not the gods themselves.

but avatars,are the gods themselves.

Nope, avatars are aspects of the various gods, the hindu gods themselves never come to earth.

and as far the value of muhammed(saw) in islam goes, then what the quran say's can best describe it for you, that we do not have any right to differentiate between any of the messengers of allah(swt) all the messengers of allah(swt), are equal for us, whether they be(adam,abraham,moses,jesus,etc)(peace be upon all of them)

Well this is simply not true, a cartoon showing a caricature of Mohammed causes worldwide rioting among the muslim communities while on the other hand when Iran hosts an art show denigrating these other prophets and their associated religions not a word in protest was heard.

well if it really has been so, then it's a matter of shame for the muslims, but the other aspect is also there , that when those who consider them as gods are doing nothing, then it appears a bit inappropriate to speak.

That's the problem, many muslims treat muhammed as if he was god itself and not merely a prophet. Maybe it just means the other religions are a bit more thick skinned and don't go up in arms whenever an image they don't like gets displayed. The Iranian art show which was put on in an attempt to show the wests hypocrisy on this matter failed utterly.

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

avatars are aspects of the various gods, the hindu gods themselves never come to earth.

Exactly. The avatars represent the same sort of things that the 99 names of allâh do.

[carolineislands]

and your saying that (islam teaches the killing of the infidels), is absolutely wrong.if anywhere in the quran or the hadith , you find text regarding killing of infidels, then it is always either for self defence or in wars.

You say Islam does not teach killing of infidels and then you follow it up by saying that when you find killing of infidels in Islam it is always for self defence or in wars.

Well, that's teaching the killing of infidels, for what EVER reason. And what you fail to mention is that wars of aggression of the Muslim Conquest lasted for a solid millennium, with various attacks and skirmishes continuing even up to the present moment.

Now, as for "Indian Religions" I assume you are talking about the religions of India and not Native American religions.
The major religions of India are Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism and some Buddhism. I know that neither Christianity or Sikhism are animist religions and Sikhism is probably the most pure mono-theism in the world. Their symbol for God is the Ek Onkar which literally means "there is only ONE God." They have their Gurus and teachers which they honor but they only believe in one God and do not have any animistic beliefs or practices.

The Sikh concept of God is that there is only one God and that he/she/it is present in every living thing and whose expanse and power and beauty can never be conceived by the limits of the human mind. And for that reason many religions have sprung up in our species but no one religion can contain the creator. The creator does not belong to any religion - but all religions belong to the creator.