Was the Flood Literal? Osteng vs. Zzyzx One on One Debate

[Zzyzx]

Place any comments about our debate here.





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[Zzyzx]

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Hi Littlesuziecollins,

Welcome to the forum. Are you new to debate forums?

The firmament of water that surrounded the earth befor the flood, is what protected us from the harmful effects of the sun.

In debate when makes a claim that is challenged, they are expected to provide verification that the claim is true. I challenge your claim.

That accounts for gigantism(which has been proven by scientist with the help of fossils).

Please cite real world evidence to support the claim of “gigantism”.

the fact that people lived longer,

Please cite non-biblical evidence that “people lived longer”.

how when the flood did happen it was such a catasrophe because it was so sudden, remember there had nt been rain up till the flood. the water firmament was dumped and the water in the earth was released all at once.

There is a debate regarding the supposed flood in the Head to Head sub-forum that might cast some doubt about flood assumptions.

thats why scientist have found fossilized animals in the middle of giving birth, one fossil showed dinosaurs fighting and were fossilized like that. the different layers that are found is not from millions of years of sediment. it is the settling of the sand, dirt, debris, etc.. after the flood, which you can proove yourself. by putting stuff in a glass of water. different kinds of sand, dirt, rocks, and it will all settle according to the weight. youwill see the layers. thats what happened during and after the flood. and the fossils i am talking about, was shown on national geographic, google it.

This topic is also discussed in the flood debate.

one more thing, if your heart is hardened against the Bible, then it will be "foolishness" to you, who dont believe. God will open your eyes if you ask Him to.

If one’s eyes are closed to anything other than religion, they will not see evidence that opposes dogma and scripture.

of course there was a flood. every culture, religion, etc... talk about a "great flood".

There are legends of floods in many cultures. Can you cite evidence that it true for EVERY culture?

Does the presence of legends PROVE that a flood occurred?

not the mention the scientific evidence of a global flood.

As a person trained in scientific study, I am unaware of any legitimate scientific evidence that supports theories of a global flood.

If you know of such a thing from people who actually study the subjects in question, please cite references.

read Moodys book about the flood, excuse me i don't remember the name of the book. there is more evidence pointing towards the authenticity of the bible and the events that take place, than any other historical book written. some of them i dont understand, but thats okay.

Are you citing Moody’s book as being scientific?

All that matters is that we lead people to believe, all it takes is just a little faith, and God will open eyes and hearts to the truth.

Just believe “on faith alone” what you are told by prophets and priests. If it is written in ancient texts or if it is said in church it must be true, right?

He did for me, and i use to believe in evolution.

What caused you to “believe in evolution”? Did you study the subject enough to be well informed of the issues, evidence, questions, conclusions within the field?

What caused you to stop believing in evolution? On the basis of what evidence exactly did you make that decision?

And to be honest it takes more faith to believe we came from nothing that to believe we were masterfully created.

Kindly cite evidence to support this conclusion.

[Revelations won]

You guys take the liberty of ripping on I and little suzi collins with your rants and raves.

You latter day scoffers cry where is the evidence of the "waters above the firmament"? Wake up. It has been clearly stated that the waters above the firmament have FALLEN. You demand to see the evidence. Maybe you ought to open up your eyes and look.

If the waters above the firmament have fallen, then you are wasting your time looking for them above the firmament.

May I kindly suggest that you look down for a change, that you might actually see the evidence before you! If your eyesight is so poor that you don;t recognize it, that's your problem, not mine.

How many of you have flown over the grand canyon to view the characteristics of this mighty wonder? If you have, you will see formations that raise deep questions regarding this scene to be one caused merely by a river flowing through it.

Have you so called scientists made yourself aware of how many billions of cubic feet of soil this incredible wonder has required to be eroded to form it as we see it today?

Tell me I pray. Where are the mighty deposits that have formed from this stupendous erosion? Where is the mighty delta that should have been formed by all this erosion?

I am so sorry you guys don't have the time to spend whipping your dead horse, cause your so busy carrying buckets of grand canyon erosion evidence away.

[Biker]

Well I am certainly impressed with the fine presentation of Osteng in this head to head. Very fine presentation of fact and logic and reasoning to support the inerrant Bible.
ZZyzx's presentation reminds me of the secular/humanist/naturalist religious mill (public school system/university).
Zzyzx's presentation is in the tradition of the secularist/humanist/naturalist evangelism of his religion.
Brainwashed psychobabble!
Creative interpretation of data to fit his biased presupppositional priori!

Great job Osteng, keep up the good work!

Biker

[Biker]

Is that a Democrat Jackass he's beating?
Is it male or female?
What did it evolve from?

Biker

[littlesuziecollins]

Place any comments about our debate here.

Prior to the flood there apparently existed many time the amount of water vapor in ther upper atmosphere that there is today . this vapor, although invisible to the human eye, would neverhteless function as a filtering protectiona and shield against the amount of intense rediation fallingupon the earth from the sun. Scienific research is now demonstrating that radiation can aprreciably reduce the life span of living tissue and actully cause the cells to speed up the process. Of course, ater the flood that protective watery canopy disappeared as it fell upon the earth in the form of rain. Creation scientist F. Filby suggests that it began in November. He points out that this fact and date is indelibly enshrined in the memory of the guman race, pointing out that to many people around the world, November brings the Day of the Dead(in the western world nov. 2 is ALL SOUL'S DAY). Dr. Henry Morris suggests that a secondary source of water is postulated, existing in vast subterranean teated and pressurized reservoirs in the earth's mantle. The actual trigger to unleash these stored waters may have been an earthquake. This earthquake would not only allow the underground waters to surface through the factured earth, but would also result in immense amounts of dust blown skyward which would then initiate the condensation and precipitation of the water canopy. Marine fossils have been found atop mountains. Scientists of the 19th cenury were dismayed to find that, as high as they climbed, the rocks yielded skeletons of marine animals , ocean fish, and shells of mollusks. A whales skeleton was found on the top of Mt. Sanhornjon the arctic coast, and other similar skeletons a mile high on californias coastal range. S. african paleonologist, estimated 800 billion skeletons of vertebrae animals exist in the Karroo formation alone. Added to the tens of thousands of fossils of all kinds found in the LaBrea tar pits in L.A.
Dinosaur footprints have been located in the same strata with human footprints in Glen rose, Texas/
Evidense of water bodies inpresent desert areas. Evidence of a recent frastic rise in the sea level. The universal occurrence of rivers in valleys too large for the present system. Evidence from the geologic column suggests there was a continuous deposition of the stratum layers, In some layers there are actual ripple marks. In other stratums there exists one or more vertical tree trunks, with the same tree making its way up from top to bottom.Dr. Richard Andree collected 46 flood legends from North and S. america, 20 from Asia, 5 from Europe, 7 from Africa, and 10 from S. Sea islands, and Australia.



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[Zzyzx]

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You guys take the liberty of ripping on I and little suzi collins with your rants and raves.

What you condemn as “rants and raves” is challenge to unsupported theories being presented as though they were true.

If one doesn’t wish to have their religious pronouncements and preachings challenged, they should not present them on an Internet debate forum.

Weak arguments are rightfully challenged regardless of their source.

You latter day scoffers cry where is the evidence of the "waters above the firmament"? Wake up.

Perhaps it is not the “latter day scoffers” who are sleeping, but the “latter day believers who are sleeping – unaware of the real world around them and the advancements of knowledge beyond that of Stone Age and Bronze Age storytellers.

It has been clearly stated that the waters above the firmament have FALLEN. You demand to see the evidence. Maybe you ought to open up your eyes and look.

It has been CLAIMED that “waters above the firmament have fallen”.

Yes, some expect to find evidence that something has fallen – MORE than mere words by prophets, preachers and religious writers.

My eyes are open. Please present the evidence.

If the waters above the firmament have fallen, then you are wasting your time looking for them above the firmament.

Agreed. You are free to present evidence that such a thing is anything more than imagination.

May I kindly suggest that you look down for a change, that you might actually see the evidence before you! If your eyesight is so poor that you don;t recognize it, that's your problem, not mine.

Is water at the surface EVIDENCE that it was once “in the firmament”?????

Kindly demonstrate with reason and evidence that water fell from a “firmament”. If you cannot do so, please be honest enough to admit that your theories cannot be supported with reason and evidence.

How many of you have flown over the grand canyon to view the characteristics of this mighty wonder? If you have, you will see formations that raise deep questions regarding this scene to be one caused merely by a river flowing through it.

As a person who has studied geology and has taught courses related to the Grand Canyon in colleges and one who has hiked to the bottom of the canyon and back as well as one who has seen it from the air, I agree that it is a magnificent feature.

My interpretation about its “meaning” and origin are very different from religionists pronouncements. Mine are based upon actual study of the feature and the processes involved.

What study are your conclusions based upon?

Have you so called scientists made yourself aware of how many billions of cubic feet of soil this incredible wonder has required to be eroded to form it as we see it today?

I am one of those who makes calculations the regarding the sediment loads, the velocity and volume of water, the amount of rock eroded, the time sequences involved, the rock strata exposed, etc.

Have you made similar studies? On what do you base your opinions?

Tell me I pray. Where are the mighty deposits that have formed from this stupendous erosion? Where is the mighty delta that should have been formed by all this erosion?

You need not pray for responses here. Simply ask.

If I point to the sediment, will you agree that the Grand Canyon was NOT the product of a “biblical flood” – or will you use the “Christian Two Step” and shift to another topic or claim that the sediments were deposited by your favored flood?

I am so sorry you guys don't have the time to spend whipping your dead horse, cause your so busy carrying buckets of grand canyon erosion evidence away.

Cute emotional clichés may impress those who wish to believe in emotion rather than reason; however, there are readers of these threads who prefer to look for logic and reason rather than emotion and faith alone as bases for decisions.

[Goat]

You guys take the liberty of ripping on I and little suzi collins with your rants and raves.

You latter day scoffers cry where is the evidence of the "waters above the firmament"? Wake up. It has been clearly stated that the waters above the firmament have FALLEN. You demand to see the evidence. Maybe you ought to open up your eyes and look.

If the waters above the firmament have fallen, then you are wasting your time looking for them above the firmament.

May I kindly suggest that you look down for a change, that you might actually see the evidence before you! If your eyesight is so poor that you don;t recognize it, that's your problem, not mine.

How many of you have flown over the grand canyon to view the characteristics of this mighty wonder? If you have, you will see formations that raise deep questions regarding this scene to be one caused merely by a river flowing through it.

Have you so called scientists made yourself aware of how many billions of cubic feet of soil this incredible wonder has required to be eroded to form it as we see it today?

Tell me I pray. Where are the mighty deposits that have formed from this stupendous erosion? Where is the mighty delta that should have been formed by all this erosion?

I am so sorry you guys don't have the time to spend whipping your dead horse, cause your so busy carrying buckets of grand canyon erosion evidence away.

Tell me..

exactly where is the physical evidence that 'waters above the firment' is correct?
Where are the astronomical evidence that this happened.
where is the physical evidence for this happening?
HOw does these claims meld in with what we currently can know and test about astrophysics?

SOudns to me that 'firments above the water', written by an amature geologist who just so happened to be a quaker teacher (or is the quack, not sure)... has any evidence FOR it?

[Zzyzx]

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Tell me..

exactly where is the physical evidence that 'waters above the firment' is correct?

There is none

Where are the astronomical evidence that this happened.

There is none.

where is the physical evidence for this happening?

There is none

HOw does these claims meld in with what we currently can know and test about astrophysics?

The claims conflict with astrophysics, physics, astronomy, meteorology, climatology, geology, and every other serious legitimate study of nature.

SOudns to me that 'firments above the water', written by an amature geologist who just so happened to be a quaker teacher (or is the quack, not sure)... has any evidence FOR it?

Why can’t you just believe on faith alone what you are told to believe? Why must you ask impertinent questions? You are going to hell for being a skeptic.

[McCulloch]

Prior to the flood there apparently existed many time the amount of water vapor in ther upper atmosphere that there is today .

Assertion without evidence.

this vapor, although invisible to the human eye, would neverhteless function as a filtering protectiona and shield against the amount of intense rediation fallingupon the earth from the sun.

Assertion without evidence.

Scienific research is now demonstrating that radiation can aprreciably reduce the life span of living tissue and actully cause the cells to speed up the process.

true

Of course, ater the flood that protective watery canopy disappeared as it fell upon the earth in the form of rain.

Assertion without evidence.

Creation scientist F. Filby suggests that it began in November. He points out that this fact and date is indelibly enshrined in the memory of the guman race, pointing out that to many people around the world, November brings the Day of the Dead(in the western world nov. 2 is ALL SOUL'S DAY).

Dr Filby a Senior Lecturer in inorganic Chemistry, is making pronouncements about anthropology, back in 1964. Has any of his wild speculations been substantiated since then by reputable scientists in the relevant field?

Dr. Henry Morris suggests that a secondary source of water is postulated, existing in vast subterranean teated and pressurized reservoirs in the earth's mantle.

Assertion without evidence. Henry Morris, a hydraulic engineer, made claims about geology in 1961. Have any of his wild speculations been substantiated since then by reputable geologists?

The actual trigger to unleash these stored waters may have been an earthquake. This earthquake would not only allow the underground waters to surface through the factured earth, but would also result in immense amounts of dust blown skyward which would then initiate the condensation and precipitation of the water canopy.

Assertion without evidence.

Marine fossils have been found atop mountains. Scientists of the 19th cenury were dismayed to find that, as high as they climbed, the rocks yielded skeletons of marine animals , ocean fish, and shells of mollusks. A whales skeleton was found on the top of Mt. Sanhornjon the arctic coast, and other similar skeletons a mile high on californias coastal range. S. african paleonologist, estimated 800 billion skeletons of vertebrae animals exist in the Karroo formation alone. Added to the tens of thousands of fossils of all kinds found in the LaBrea tar pits in L.A.

All well explained by the standard model and poorly explained by the flood model.

Dinosaur footprints have been located in the same strata with human footprints in Glen rose, Texas/

Assertion without evidence.
[quote="A Summary of the Paluxy "Man Track" Controversy "]Although genuine dinosaur tracks are abundant in Texas, claims of human tracks have not withstood close scientific scrutiny, and in recent years have been largely abandoned even by most creationists. Alleged Paluxy "man tracks" involve a variety of spurious phenomena, including erosional features, metatarsal dinosaur tracks, indistinct markings of unknown origin, and a few loose carvings.[/quote]

The most celebrated "man tracks" on the Taylor Site are forms of "metatarsal" dinosaur tracks--made by dinosaurs which, at least at times, made elongate prints by impressing their metatarsi (soles and heels) as they walked, rather than walking on their toes only. When the digit marks on such elongate/metatarsal tracks are subdued by sediment infilling, mud- collapse, erosion, or a combination of factors, the metatarsal segment at the rear often presents an oblong shape that roughly resembles a large human footprint. Other alleged "man tracks" include erosional features and indistinct markings of uncertain origin, some of which were enhanced with water or oil at times to appear more human, or even physically altered in some cases. A smaller number of "man tracks" are outright carvings (mostly on loose blocks of rock). Claims of other "out of order" fossils from Texas and elsewhere are also lacking in scientific support.

In 1986 a number of leading creationist researchers decided that the evidence of supposedly human and dinosaur footprints, found together at the Paluxy River in Texas, had serious problems. They decided that, pending further research to establish the correct interpretation of the prints, they could no longer be safely used as evidence supporting the fact (based on the biblical account of creation) that man and dinosaur lived at the same time.

The question should be why do creationist keep trotting out the same bunch of discredited arguments, again and again.

[Zzyzx]

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The question should be why do creationist keep trotting out the same bunch of discredited arguments, again and again.

I suggest that there are several reasons

1. Dishonesty

2. Lack of valid arguments

3. Creationists new to debate

4. Faulty memory

5. Habitual parroting of dogma