Evidence for the Resurrection

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Goose

Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #1

Post by Goose »

In my opinion, when determining the truthfulness of Christianity virtually everything is secondary in importance to the resurrection of Jesus Christ (the Rez). Paul made this clear when he said in 1 Corinthians 15:14, "if Christ has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing." I believe the truthfulness of Christianity hangs primarily on the Rez.

I also believe there is a solid case for the Rez that meets a reasonable burden of proof for matters of history. Equal, at least, to that which we accept for other pivotal events in ancient history accepted as true and rarely questioned.

As indicated by the spectrum of the below quoted scholars and historians, I propose we can be reasonably certain some historical "facts" are probably true regardless of our philosophical predispositions. We can then look at theories that account for those facts.

The Methodology:

A "fact" shouldn't necessarily need to pass all of the listed criteria to be considered probable. Failing any one particular criterion does not necessarily make the fact false. Indeed very few, if any at all, ancient historical "facts" we rarely question would adequately pass all the requests of such a rigorous criteria as set out below. However, a fact that fails to pass a single criterion we would be justified in believing it to be improbable. Passing one or two should be sufficient to have the "fact" be at least considered probable. If a fact passes three I think we can be confident that it is very probable and so on. This methodology is not fool-proof of course as it is open to our biases and ultimately subjective to a degree. However, this seems to be the only way (I know of) to establish a reasonably objective treatment of evidence - i.e. pass the evidence through a standard set of criteria using a consistent methodology that can be applied to ALL ancient events. So, using criteria such as (but not limited to)...
  • 1. Eyewitness attestation
    2. Early attestation (the earlier the better - written during the lifetime of possible eyewitnesses is preferred)
    3. Multiple independent attestation (independent does not mean non-Christian, but rather independent from other sources)
    4. Enemy or neutral source attestation
    5. The Principle of Embarrassment (If it's embarrassing or harmful to the case it is very likely that it is authentic or actually happened. It's very unlikely to have been propaganda simply “made up”)
Marcus J. Borg, a liberal theologian and "fellow" of the Jesus Seminar wrote, "The logic is straightforward: if a tradition appears in an early source and in another independent source, then not only is it early, but it is also unlikely to have been made up." Marcus J. Borg and N. T. Wright, The Meaning of Jesus (1999), p. 12.

Historian Paul Maier notes, "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable." Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness of Time: A Historian Looks a Christmas, Easter, and the Early Church (1991), p. 197.


As a side note, I’m confident we can reconcile alleged contradictions in the NT, demonstrate traditional authorship of the Gospels/Acts (i.g. The disciple Matthew wrote the Gospel of Matthew and so on. Just as we would for any other ancient document, see here ), and demonstrate the synoptics were written before 70AD. However, we'll forgo debate over the preceding to avoid rabbit trails and make it more of a challenge for the Rez theory. So, for the sake of argument in this thread we will assume:
  • 1. The Bible is errant and not inspired by God. We'll consider it merely a collection of ancient writings.
    2. The Gospels/Acts are technically anonymous and may or may not be eyewitness accounts.
    3. The Gospels and other Christian/non-Christian accounts contain minor errors and contradictions in secondary details.
    4. The Gospels/Acts were written after 70AD, but no later than 100AD.
    5. Mark was the first Gospel written. The authors of Luke and Matthew used some of Mark as a source for their Gospels.

We could submit many, but to start, here are 5 "facts" that should pass enough of the listed criteria to be considered probable:

FACT 1. Jesus’ crucifixion and death
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from the Apostle Paul - (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 2:15; 1 Corinthians 1:23, 2:2 and early creedal passages in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - ca. 50-60AD)
    b) Multiple attestation in all four Gospels and the Book of Acts (ca. 70-100AD)
    c) Enemy/neutral attestation from Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18:64 - 96AD)
    d) Enemy/neutral attestation from Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15:44 - ca. 115AD)
    e) Enemy/neutral attestation from Greek satirical writer Lucian (The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 - ca. 150AD)
    f) Enemy/neutral attestation from Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a - ca. 200AD)
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the humiliating suffering and death of a supposed Messiah and the Son of God (as well as Principle of Dissimilarity from Jewish anticipation of a military type leader in the Messiah).
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Lüdemann acknowledged, "Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable." Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ, pg 50.

The critical NT scholar and Jesus Seminar co-founder John Dominic Crossan wrote, "Jesus’ death by execution under Pontius Pilate is as sure as anything historical can ever be. For, if no follower of Jesus had written anything for one hundred years after his crucifixion, we would still know about him from two authors not among his supporters. Their names are Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus...We have, in other words, not just Christian witnesses but one major Jewish and one major pagan historian who both agree on three points concerning Jesus: there was a movement, there was an execution because of that movement, but, despite that execution, there was a continuation of the movement." John Dominic Crossan, Who Killed Jesus?, pg. 5

Crossan also said, "Despite the differences between the studied impartiality of Josephus and the sneering partiality of Tacitus, they agree on three rather basic facts. First, there was some sort of a movement connected with Jesus. Second, he was executed by official authority presumably to stop the movement. Third, rather than being stopped, the movement continued to spread. There remain, therefore, these three: movement, execution, continuation. But the greatest of these is continuation." John Dominic Crossan, The Essential Jesus, p. 7.

John P. Meier wrote, "For two obvious reasons practically no one would deny the fact that Jesus was executed by crucifixion: (1) This central event is reported or alluded to not only by the vast majority of NT authors, but also by Josephus and Tacitus...(2) Such an embarrassing event created a major obstacle to converting Jews and Gentiles alike...that the Church struggled to overcome..." (John P. Meier, "The Circle of the Twelve: Did It Exist during Jesus' Public Ministry?", Journal of Biblical Literature 116 [1997] p. 664–665).


FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.
  • a) Early attestation from Paul - he implies an empty tomb (1 Cor. 15:3-4)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (the very early Pre-Markan Passion source probably contained the empty tomb)
    c) The disciples were accused of stealing Jesus’ body by unbelieving Jews - indirect enemy confirmation that the tomb was empty (Matthew 28, Christian apologist Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho 108 - ca. 150AD; Christian apologist Tertullian De Spectaculis 30 - ca. 200AD)
    d) The principle of embarrassment applies to the empty tomb reported as having been discovered by women
    e) We have no record of Jesus’ corpse being produced only accusations that the disciples stole the body.
    f) Setting the stage for the empty tomb was the honourable burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimethea (another fact we could admit as number 6 - but won't as it isn't really necessary to do so). It is attested by all four Gospels. As well Paul mentions the burial of Jesus(1 Cor 15). It also is strengthened by the Principle of Embarrassment where a Jewish member of the council, rather than a disciple or family member, that condemned Jesus was reported as honourably burring Jesus. This would have been offensive to the disciples and as such is unlikely to be a fabrication.
Liberal theologian John A. T. Robinson commented on the burial of Jesus, "[it is] one of the earliest and best–attested facts about Jesus." John A. T. Robinson, The Human Face of God (1973), p. 131.

William Wand, a past Oxford University church historian wrote, "All the strictly historical evidence we have is in favour [of the empty tomb], and those scholars who reject it ought to recognize that they do so on some other grounds than that of scientific history." William Wand, Christianity: A Historical Religion? (1972), p. 93-94

NT critic D. H. Van Daalen wrote, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions." D.H. Van Daalen, The Real Resurrection(1972), p. 41.


FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

Claims of appearances to the disciples:
  • a) Early (and enemy) attestation from Paul (1 Cor. 15:4-8)
    b) Multiple attestation from all four Gospels (even without the later addition of 16:9-20, early attestation in Mark's Gospel predicts the Rez and appearances in 8:31, 9:31, 10:34 and suggests there will be appearances made by Jesus 14:28, 16:6-7)
    c) Multiple attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 1-5, 10, 13, 17)
    d) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Tacitus (he may be inadvertently providing evidence that the apostles at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Annals 15:44 when he says, "...[Christianity] thus checked for the moment [by the crucifixion of Jesus], again broke out not only in Judea...")
    e) Possible neutral/enemy attestation from Josephus (he may be reporting that the disciples at least believed Jesus appeared to them in Antiquities 18)
    f) The Principle of Dissimilarity applies to the notion of a man/Messiah resurrecting from the dead before the end of time was contrary to Jewish belief and therefore reduces the odds it was "made up."
    g) Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25).



Persecution and death of some disciples:
  • a) Early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 12 - death of James brother of John)
    b) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5 - ca. 95AD)
    c) Attestation from Ignatius (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 3:2-3 - ca. 110AD)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9 - ca. 110AD)
    e) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (ca. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 - ca. 200AD)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Contra Celsum 2:56,77 - ca. 230-250AD)
Atheist NT scholar Gerd Ludemann said, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus' death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ." Gerd Ludemann, What Really Happened to Jesus? A Historical Approach to the Resurrection, (1995) p. 80. (It should be noted Ludemann believes these were visions)

Paula Fredriksen, a sceptical historian and scholar of religious studies, said in an interview with Peter Jennings (ABC) entitled The Search for Jesus in July 2000, "I know in [the disciples] own terms what they saw was the raised Jesus. That's what they say and then all the historic evidence we have afterwards attest to their conviction that that's what they saw. I'm not saying that they really did see the raised Jesus. I wasn't there. I don't know what they saw. But I do know that as a historian that they must have seen something."



FACT 4. Paul, an enemy and persecutor of the church (Acts 8:3, 1 Cor. 15:9, Gal. 1:13) was transformed and became a prolific apostle because of his belief that a risen Jesus appeared to him. He was persecuted and reported as martyred.

Appearances of Jesus to Paul and his conversion:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul himself (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1, Phil. 3)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from the Book of Acts (ch. 9, 22, 26)
Paul’s suffering/martyrdom:
  • a) Early, multiple and eyewitness attestation from Paul for his suffering (2 Cor. 11, Phil. 1)
    b) Multiple and early attestation from Book of Acts (ch. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21, 23)
    c) Early attestation from Clement of Rome (1 Clement 5)
    d) Attestation from Polycarp (Letter to the Philippians 9:2)
    e) Attestation from Tertullian (Scorpiace 15 and also quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:25:8)
    f) Attestation from Dionysius of Corinth (c. 170AD - quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:25:8)
    g) Attestation from Origen (Commentary on Genesis as quoted by Eusebius in EH 3:1)
FACT 5. James, brother of Jesus (Mark 6:3) and sceptic of His claims before the appearance of Jesus to him, was transformed and became a leader in the Church in Jerusalem. He was reported as martyred.
  • a) Principle of Embarrassment applies as Jesus' own family and brother James were described as sceptical prior to appearances (multiply attested - Matthew 13:57, Mark 3:21, 6:3-4, John 7:4-5)
    b) Jesus appeared alive to James after His death (early and enemy attestation from Paul - 1 Cor. 15:7)
    c) James is later described as an apostle by Paul(Gal 1:19) and leader in the early church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9,12 and Acts 15)
    d) Suffered and martyred - Enemy/neutral attestation from Josephus (ca. 96AD - Antiquities 20), further multiple attestation from Hegesippus (ca. 160AD - as quoted by Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History 2:23), and Clement of Alexandria (ca. 180-200AD as quoted by Eusebius in EH 2:1).

Note that none of these 5 facts are supernatural or hard to believe on their own. They are all well attested with early and multiple sources. By any reasonable historical methodology these should be considered solid facts. Keep in mind on their own each fact presented does not build a strong case for the Rez. However, it is as a collective unit we must consider the evidence. We are looking for the best explanation that accounts for ALL the evidence. I posit the theory that God resurrected Jesus from the dead best accounts for ALL the evidence and combines explanatory power and scope given the context of Jesus' life and the claims made of Him and by Him.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?


Additional considerations and requests:
1. Persons who side with the weight of evidence, what the evidence suggests, and cogent arguments supported by good evidence could be described as taking a rational position. We would be justified in deeming "irrational" a position that denies evidence with out good reason and opposes strong arguments to side with weak unsupported arguments. On this, we can all agree.

2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

3. Please supply the methodology/criteria for questioning any one of these 5 facts (or any other evidence one wishes to refute or admit for consideration). We can then apply this methodology to other ancient historical facts. This will help us determine if the objection has credibility or is merely stemming from a bias against either the supernatural or Christianity. Simply making the objection, for example, that we cannot trust anything written by a Christian because they were biased is very problematic. Applying that overly simplistic criterion to the rest of ancient history would call almost all of it into question (even most of modern history).

I'll look forward to reading the responses. O:)

Beto

Post #71

Post by Beto »

Goose wrote:
Beto wrote:
Goose wrote: Sceptic: Show me some evidence for your supernatural claim.
Christian: Ok, here it is, (see the OP)...
Sceptic: I don't accept that evidence because it is a supernatural claim.
Christian: #-o
If the problem begins because one asks for proof of a supernatural claim, why would you offer a second one as evidence? Aren't you the one causing the circular reasoning?
Have a look at the OP again. There is nothing supernatural about the five facts there. What is the best explanation for them? Why don't you take a crack at the question for debate in the OP. I don't think you have yet.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
I realize being confronted with the opinion that the question in debate is flawed (e.g. the use of the word "evidence") isn't pleasant, but the same has happened to me.

What I find debatable in this case is the use of the word "fact" when addressing what I find is nothing but fiction (with the eventual historical basis), just like the Iliad.

I can see you want to debate assuming those allegations are facts. You can only debate like this among Christians that think like you do. Perhaps you should point that out in the OP. The forum has something called the Holy Huddle Room, where you can debate starting from that premise.

Goose

Post #72

Post by Goose »

Cathar1950 wrote: I am having problems with the OP and your line of “reasoning” Goose.
Sorry to hear that. I'll try and bring you up to speed.
Cathar1950 wrote:The other gospel writers using Mark update his story a generation later and embellish with their own fictions. It is funny how none of the detail are the same and the tale get bigger with each telling of the gospel stories.
Here's how the earliest and most reliable manuscripts of Mark ends.

Mark 16:5-8
As they went into the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were utterly astonished. But he said to them, "Stop being astonished! You are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised. He is not here. Look at the place where they laid him. But go and tell his disciples, especially Peter, that he is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you." So they left the tomb and ran away, for shock and astonishment had overwhelmed them. They didn't say a thing to anyone, because they were afraid.
You guys keep bringing up discrepancies, as though that proves the accounts are fictional. I already conceded discrepancies in the OP for the sake of argument. Differences in details are expected in accounts given by different people taken from different sources. This helps us have some reassurance they are independent. Try reading the accounts given by Plutarch and Suetonius for the assassination of Caesar. There are discrepancies but there are also a core of consistencies. Historians don't assume it's fictional because the accounts have differences.
It's funny how sceptics on this forum hang their hat on the inconsistencies and differences between accounts in the empty tomb and appearances in the Gospels, then turn around and say, "bbbbut they're also dependant and copied one another." Sorry, you can't have both. I've already provided in the OP and above where Mark shows a prediction of a resurrection and expressly states there was a resurrection and there will be appearances (See above). It only lacks the description of those appearances. The later descriptions in Matthew, Luke and John are not embellishments of a supernatural nature. If Mark had ended with Christ's' death and then Matthew, Luke, and John picked up with a resurrection and appearances then you'd have a case. But you don't. If Paul had only said in 1 Corinthians 15 "he died and was buried" you'd have a case. But you don't.

Regarding gross embellishments to the supernatural. The initial discovery of the empty tomb in John is the soberest of all four accounts. If your theory is correct Matthew's earthquake, descending angel from heaven with a countenance like lightening that rolled back the stone should evolve to hosts of angels, tsunamies, fires, lightening, talking crosses, multiple earthquakes, and general global meltdown in John. But there is nothing of the sort. In John the tomb is initially discovered empty with nothing supernatural about it what-so-ever. It's only later in John there are angels and there are only two, the same number as Luke. Matthew has no miracles after the Rez, Luke has the ascension but no earthquakes or other miracles etc. Other than a brief mention that Jesus did numerous miracles, John who has the highest Christology, gives the risen Lord (who had healed the sick, cast out daemons, fed the multitudes, before rising from the dead) merely helping the disciples catch a big load of fish after the Rez. John who allegedly has a theological axe to grind in proving Christ's God-hood has no actual account of an ascension (only a mention it will happen) and no other miracles, no earthquakes, and no lightening. We would expect John to report appearances to multitudes if he were building on Paul's 500 and the synoptics. We'd expect that number to be a 1000 or 5000 and be on multiple occasions. Yet the Gospels do not even mention it. Regardless of differences the core remains consistent in Paul and the Gospels - Jesus died, he rose, he was seen by individuals and groups in different places at different times. It's not until the second century when all the possible witnesses or those close to the events are dead that we begin to see unnecessary absurdities such as talking crosses and such in the Rez accounts. There is no clear and overtly obvious pattern of continual supernatural embellishment in the accounts given for the Rez story in the Gospels. In fact, in some cases it's a dumbing down. Your precious and overly simplistic embellishment theory has encountered mechanical problems before it's even taxied onto the runway.

Further, if Acts is reporting Paul's conversion as only a spiritual encounter then the story is de-evolving as Luke's gospel predates Acts. The writer of Acts and the Gospel of Luke are the same author. The Gospel portrays the appearances as physical. If the writer of Acts is just making it up and reports only a spiritual encounter for Paul this shows de-evolution not evolution in the story. Considering in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul seems to think his encounter with the risen Lord was of the same type as the disciples are you still sure you want to hold that Paul's experience was only thought to be spiritual? It seems you must choose. Paul's experience as reported in Acts was physical and your embellishment theory has one less obstacle. Or Paul's experience was only spiritual in nature (a vision perhaps) but the progression is then de-evolving from physical to spiritual. Which one will Cathar sacrifice?
Cathar1950 wrote: You ask us to find an alternative explanation for fiction as you presume the gospels are fact. Given all the other tales of missing bodies that were presumed taken to the gods, no other explanation is necessary while your explanation misunderstands the type of writing the gospels are, hero tales.
Yes other explanations necessary! Simply stating there were other stories of bodies taken to heaven, that proves what exactly? It proves there were stories of bodies taken to heaven. You have yet to show that makes the accounts in the Gospels fictional. Citing what you believe to be plagiarism from the LXX, Homer, or mystery religions is not evidence that the gospels are fiction. Your superficial parallels can be in many cases easily explained by as typologies, coincidence or even literary devices as much as anything else. You're throwing cr@p against the wall hoping something sticks.

You have yet to offer any methodology for asserting that the accounts are simply fictional hero tales. I don't know of any main stream historian that takes the position that the Gospels are nothing but fiction with no factual basis what-so-ever. That may or may not be what you are claiming. So I don't mean to misrepresent you. If you are, I think there is some burden on you to show this, considering it is not a widely held position.

Cathar1950 wrote: FACT 2. The tomb was discovered empty.

Again it is not a fact it is part of the story. You got the women going to the tomb to prepare his body while another gospel tells us Joseph and Nicodemus had already done the job.
What's your methodology for saying it is NOT a fact? Please don't tell me it's just a simple criterion of a discrepancy. The core of the story is unanimous in the Gospels - women first discovered the empty tomb.
Cathar1950 wrote: Mark leaves us with an empty tomb and the others embellish and add details that don't add up or even know the other's details.
Maybe they don't know the other's details because they were written independently, or at least the Rez story was.
Cathar1950 wrote: FACT 3. The apostles sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and then appeared to them. So sincerely that some were willing to endure persecution and possibly even death because of this belief:

...You do not have “Multiple attestation”, you have other gospel writers using Mark and even changing the story.
You need to go back and read the OP and the evidence provided again. There is more than Mark. Are you saying the writer of Acts and Clement used Mark when describing persecution of the disciples?
Goose wrote:Principle of Embarrassment applies to the evidence that some disciples at the first instance did not believe but had doubts that Jesus was alive (Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:36-38, John 20:24-25.
Cathar1950 wrote: Notice Mark is not included? Why would the disciples doubt if they saw him?
It was obviously written for those that believe with doubts. Again it is part of the story that was used by others and not “Multiple attestation”.
I think your analysis is incorrect. I think it would have the opposite effect. People would say, "But if the disciples, that were there and saw Jesus first hand, had a hard time believing how can I be expected to believe?" It's a common argument used by sceptics on this forum. I think your theory of embellishment and adaptation has a lot of holes in it. The time frame for the writing of the Gospels and Paul was far too early and close to the events to simply be all a product of embellishment and mythmaking.

If your theory is correct that the Gopels were altered to meet the needs of the early Christian community, why not insert Jesus addressing the issue of circumcision, a large area of dispute in the very early church?
Cathar1950 wrote: John goes against the grain and like the other authors has his own axe to grind but he seems to know at least some of the other gospel writings. Mark seems to think Jesus wasn't nor needed to be of the line of David while Luke and Matthew think it is important enough to make up their own genealogies or at least some one later did.
Goose wrote:That has what to do with the Rez?
It has to do with the writers using Mark and not being witnesses or multiple attestations which you hang your defense of the resurrection. Did you forget already? I guess that is what happens when you use someone's argument with your lack of understanding.[/quote]Because John "seems to know at least some of the other gospel writings" he must have borrowed heavily from them? Sorry, not buying that one. There are too many differences between John and the synoptics. I'll give you Markan priority and we can dispense with Matthew and Luke. So you still have Mark, John, Paul and Clement in the first century (oh, and Q, but somehow you think that one probably came from the LXX too). I guess in your world, if two accounts are in any way similar the only explanation is someone plagiarised, eh? But then if they are different or contradictory in their details then they must be fictional. That's an all too convenient methodology me thinks.
Cathar1950 wrote: Dead and resurrected gods are dead and resurrected gods. How is it a fallacy? He was defending his belief by pointing out the other gods that died and lived. Now you are just being little with nonsense. You call that a defense?
Simply claiming there were dying and rising gods linked to the seasons is not evidence that the writers of the NT borrowed the theme. Justin Martyr is in the middle of the second century. He's just as likely remarking on mystery religions that popped up AFTER Christianity was initiated.
Goose wrote:Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
Cathar1950 wrote: [1]A better theory is that Mark wrote his gospel and a generation later or more the others updated him as they felt his story lacked. [2]That Paul had visions of a “Spirit Christ” that was raised to God's side and was misunderstood by later writers. [3]The gospels are typical Roman/Greek hero myths and should be understood as such with out the claims as fact.
Your math is a little fuzzy. Actually, that's three theories that are very ad hoc, disconnected and lack explanatory power. You've got a lot more explaining to do. It essentially hinges on some theories that have little if any in the way of direct evidence. It's almost all speculation. You're wanting to make the large and fallacious jump from what are a hand full of generally superficial parallels to the notion the whole of the Gospels are fictional (or at least the Rez is). Sorry, not buying that non-sequitur either.

Theory [1] Mark sat down one night with Homer, the LXX, and some other sources, threw in some dying and rising god stuff because that was in vogue and concocted a gospel. Then some other writers later copied this and perpetuated the myth. But the question remains, WHY? Why write a myth and perpetuate it with the intention of converting people to a religion that was controversial and would not only potentially put the writers but also converts in harms way? WHY??? You need another theory for this. You've already had to give the theory that the embarrassing parts of the Gospels were added to meet the needs of the doubting converts. Now you need another one.

Theory [2] What caused Paul to leave his life as a Pharisee and either convert to or start a heretical cult? What caused his conversion? An additional speculation is required for this as well.

Theory [3] You haven't provided any methodology to establish this. Making the assertion is not enough. Citing a handful of superficial parallels and saying it "looks" like isn't enough either. If they were just myths why do we have evidence from Acts, Clement, Josephus, and Church fathers of disciples enduring persecution and in a few cases even death for a belief in something they knew to be a myth? You need an additional way to explain away that evidence as well.

You still haven't accounted for the evidence of a change in heart in James.

Nor the evidence for an empty tomb implied in Paul and the Gospels.

Lot's more work to do, I'm afraid.

From the OP
2. As history deals more with degrees of probability rather than absolute certainty I would suggest the following. A single theory that has explanatory scope and power, given the context of surrounding events, and accounts for ALL the evidence should be considered more probable over a compilation of several theories stacked upon one another in an ad hoc manner. Especially if those ad hoc theories are speculation rich and evidence poor.

Goose

Post #73

Post by Goose »

Goose wrote:This is actually disappointing. No one has even attempted to address the question for debate.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
stevencarrwork wrote: It is you who claims a miracle happened, so it is up to you to produce evidence for it.
I've claimed that we have non supernatural evidence. I'm asking what the best explanation for that evidence is. I think the Rez theory best explains all the data.
stevencarrwork wrote:Some religious lunatics , some of whom claimed to have gone to Heaven, started a religion.
Yes, but why?
stevencarrwork wrote:Heaven knows why they did.
Wouldn't you like to know? Why make up a controversial religion? Especially when it might put you in harms way.
stevencarrwork wrote:But I don't have to explain the thought processes of Paul, a lunatic who claimed to have gone to heaven.
Yes you do. You need to explain his conversion and that of James. And why the disciples sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and why there was an empty tomb.
stevencarrwork wrote:It is your job to take something written by somebody who claimed to have visited Heaven and tell us that it is history.


Right back atchya. You need to show why we cannot except the non supernatural data presented in the OP, then look for the most powerful explanation. We're looking at the evidence for what is allegedly a Resurrection and trying to find the best explanation, not trips to heaven. I can make the same request of you (actually I did in the OP) to show your methodology for dismissing the evidence. None of the 5 facts are supernatural. So you can't simply dismiss them on that basis. So far all you've done is question the evidence. Questions are not evidence. The best you've offered are some long-shot superficial parallels to some stories in the OT with the insinuation that the NT is therefore "made up." That's a BIG leap not to mention a huge non-sequitur. So far it's unimpressive.

But, I'll make a pact with you. I won't TELL you anything. I'll show you the evidence and let you figure it out for yourself.

Goose

Post #74

Post by Goose »

Beto wrote: I can see you want to debate assuming those allegations are facts. You can only debate like this among Christians that think like you do. Perhaps you should point that out in the OP. The forum has something called the Holy Huddle Room, where you can debate starting from that premise.
Or you could go haunt another thread. Run along now...

Beto

Post #75

Post by Beto »

Goose wrote:
Beto wrote: I can see you want to debate assuming those allegations are facts. You can only debate like this among Christians that think like you do. Perhaps you should point that out in the OP. The forum has something called the Holy Huddle Room, where you can debate starting from that premise.
Or you could go haunt another thread. Run along now...
I think I'll stay and watch you trade sanctimonious pats on the back with other Christians of the same mentality.

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Post #76

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Beto wrote:
Goose wrote:
Beto wrote: I can see you want to debate assuming those allegations are facts. You can only debate like this among Christians that think like you do. Perhaps you should point that out in the OP. The forum has something called the Holy Huddle Room, where you can debate starting from that premise.
Or you could go haunt another thread. Run along now...
I think I'll stay and watch you trade sanctimonious pats on the back with other Christians of the same mentality.
Right on, Beto.

No one has the authority to instruct another member to "run along now". It is an attempt to make the writer feel superior (without reason) and elitist -- and is very transparent (I won't say juvenile).

Observing the sanctimonious pats on the back is entertaining, as is watching battles erupt about who is a "Real Christian".
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Post #77

Post by TruthSeeker1 »

stevencarrwork wrote:Heaven knows why they did.
Goose: Wouldn't you like to know? Why make up a controversial religion? Especially when it might put you in harms way.
With your logic Islam must be true, same thing with Mormonism. You do know how Joseph Smith died don't you? Obviously the Mormon religion must be true, right?
stevencarrwork wrote:But I don't have to explain the thought processes of Paul, a lunatic who claimed to have gone to heaven.
Goose: Yes you do. You need to explain his conversion and that of James. And why the disciples sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and why there was an empty tomb.
Where do we have the disciples talking about an empty tomb? The 4 Gospels were written anonymously, and we have no way of knowing anything about the supposed disciples apart from the Gospels which may or may not be a work of fiction.
Goose: Right back atchya. You need to show why we cannot except the non supernatural data presented in the OP, then look for the most powerful explanation. We're looking at the evidence for what is allegedly a Resurrection and trying to find the best explanation, not trips to heaven. I can make the same request of you (actually I did in the OP) to show your methodology for dismissing the evidence. None of the 5 facts are supernatural. So you can't simply dismiss them on that basis. So far all you've done is question the evidence. Questions are not evidence. The best you've offered are some long-shot superficial parallels to some stories in the OT with the insinuation that the NT is therefore "made up." That's a BIG leap not to mention a huge non-sequitur. So far it's unimpressive.
What you call evidence requires too many presuppositions. Sure, if you presume the Gospels to be historical accounts and accurate, sure if you presume that the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses or close acquaintances of the disciples, and sure if you presume that the little historical evidence for the life of the disciples are all correct then you have SOME evidence. The problem though is you throw out the word "fact" so liberally without honestly recognizing the amount of presuppositions you make that in the end your argument will fail to convince those who are not already convinced.

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Post #78

Post by Goat »

Goose wrote:
Goose wrote:This is actually disappointing. No one has even attempted to address the question for debate.

Question for debate: Is the Resurrection the best explanation for ALL the evidence (i.e. the five facts presented)? Or, is there a better competing theory that accounts for ALL the evidence?
stevencarrwork wrote: It is you who claims a miracle happened, so it is up to you to produce evidence for it.
I've claimed that we have non supernatural evidence. I'm asking what the best explanation for that evidence is. I think the Rez theory best explains all the data.
stevencarrwork wrote:Some religious lunatics , some of whom claimed to have gone to Heaven, started a religion.
Yes, but why?
stevencarrwork wrote:Heaven knows why they did.
Wouldn't you like to know? Why make up a controversial religion? Especially when it might put you in harms way.
stevencarrwork wrote:But I don't have to explain the thought processes of Paul, a lunatic who claimed to have gone to heaven.
Yes you do. You need to explain his conversion and that of James. And why the disciples sincerely believed Jesus rose from the dead and why there was an empty tomb.
stevencarrwork wrote:It is your job to take something written by somebody who claimed to have visited Heaven and tell us that it is history.


Right back atchya. You need to show why we cannot except the non supernatural data presented in the OP, then look for the most powerful explanation. We're looking at the evidence for what is allegedly a Resurrection and trying to find the best explanation, not trips to heaven. I can make the same request of you (actually I did in the OP) to show your methodology for dismissing the evidence. None of the 5 facts are supernatural. So you can't simply dismiss them on that basis. So far all you've done is question the evidence. Questions are not evidence. The best you've offered are some long-shot superficial parallels to some stories in the OT with the insinuation that the NT is therefore "made up." That's a BIG leap not to mention a huge non-sequitur. So far it's unimpressive.

But, I'll make a pact with you. I won't TELL you anything. I'll show you the evidence and let you figure it out for yourself.
You claim there is evidence, I don't see any evidence you presented what so ever that was not circular in nature, or decades later, or just plain assumptions.

You give a whole bunch of opinions from Christians who desperately want to believe it, but none of it is evidence of the supernatural event of the resurrection.
At best, it is evidence that 30 or 40 years later, there was a belief in it.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Re: Evidence for the Resurrection

Post #79

Post by stevencarrwork »

Goose wrote:Paul, being a Pharisee likely believed in the physical resurrection of the dead, yes or no?
Pauls calls his former Pharisaiacla beliefs 'garbage' in Galatians'
Goose wrote: Paul speaks of glory and then in 42-44 Paul uses examples of sewing and raising again. In verse 44 Paul says "raised a spiritual body" not "raised a spirit". There is connotation of physicality. How much physicality is open to interpretation I suppose. But to jump to a purely spiritual experience is an unwarranted exegesis of the text. I don't see how one could interpret that purely as a resurrection of the spirit only.

But, for the sake of argument let's say it was a spiritual resurrection Paul was speaking of. All you're really doing then is questioning the nature of Jesus' resurrected body.
Paul never says that what is buried is what is risen, and he stresses to those dumb Jesus-worshippers that what is raised is made of a heavenly material, and trashes the idea that resurrected bodies are made of the dust of the earth that corpses dissolve into.

So where is your evidence that Jesus rose from the grave?

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Post #80

Post by stevencarrwork »

TruthSeeker1 wrote:
stevencarrwork wrote:Heaven knows why they did.
Goose: Wouldn't you like to know? Why make up a controversial religion? Especially when it might put you in harms way.
With your logic Islam must be true, same thing with Mormonism. You do know how Joseph Smith died don't you? Obviously the Mormon religion must be true, right?
Goose's logic would only prove Islam was true, if there were Islamic stories of somebody close to Muhammad who was was initially sceptical, and then converted to Islam, and was prepared to risk his life for his new beliefs.

Hey , guess what? There are such stories.

I suppose Islam must be true after all.

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