God is Perfect!

[Furrowed Brow]

Hey what am I doing in the theology and doctrine forum?

Anyhow. I read this Here

If you believe in God then you must believe He is Perfect.

Im a bit ignorant of doctrine. But I am curious. Where in scripture does it say that god is perfect. And exactly what is said?

Also, if god is perfectwhat does that mean?

[Greatest I Am]

My view is that God's Perfection as well as all His systems have never lost their Perfection.

But where in scripture does it say or entail that God is perfect? Are you imposing your own sense of God, a sense of God that is more platonic the God of scripture?

The title of God encompasses the idea that none can exceed His attributes.

A God that is not Perfect can be deposed by a God that is Perfect.

Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

If imperfect then we are all spinning our wheels. No purpose could be given to man because we would be destined to fail at whatever we tried because of our imperfection.
Scripture asks us to reach for Perfection. This being the case, I would think it is a reachable goal.

If we can reach a state of Perfection and God cannot then we are stronger or better than God.

Not what a God would tolerate. Perhaps this is why He sent the flood. Perhaps we were besting Him. Joke.

Regards
DL

[QED]

OK, well, I can't see how the uncertainty principle would affect the numerical ratios -- but I get your drift. You're explaining why the world looks to be sans God by suggesting that God is deliberately hiding himself by using deceit (planting fossils and rigging isotopes to make a young Earth look a million times older). Could deceit be considered as an attribute of a perfect God?

Yes.

If we are in the image of God then God must be in the image of man.

All attributes would be shared except of course God's levels would be the benchmark for us to strive for. His standards would be the max.

So you're saying that God must be the ultimate deceiver? I can imagine that some may wish to argue that deceit in some cases is justifiable. But what about all the other subjectively nasty things we humans engage in? I can't imagine God as the the ultimate addict -- or are we going to have to get picky about which attributes are shared? Once you define God as the ultimate in all things, God becomes an incoherent mess of contradictions.

[QED]

And another problem that you need an answer for is that for God to be perfect, he must be unchanging. Yet before he created our universe he was the God who had not created. And until stars had synthesised all the elements heavier than helium, he was the God with a lightweight universe etc. So it seems that God cannot be unchanging and hence not perfect.

[Furrowed Brow]

Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

Which bits of scripture?

Scripture asks us to reach for Perfection.

Which bits of scripture?

As I said in the OP I dont know much about scripture. But I have an inkling that scripture does not support nor say that God is perfect. I suspect there is some Greek philosophy imposing itself on the concept of perfection, ideals etc, and that the notion of Gods perfection arises here and not out of scripture.

Youve given reasons why God should be perfect, or must be perfect, but Im looking to see if this notion of God really arises out of scripture as it is written; or does it require the theist construct some philosophical framework around scripture?

[Greatest I Am]

OK, well, I can't see how the uncertainty principle would affect the numerical ratios -- but I get your drift. You're explaining why the world looks to be sans God by suggesting that God is deliberately hiding himself by using deceit (planting fossils and rigging isotopes to make a young Earth look a million times older). Could deceit be considered as an attribute of a perfect God?

Yes.

If we are in the image of God then God must be in the image of man.

All attributes would be shared except of course God's levels would be the benchmark for us to strive for. His standards would be the max.

So you're saying that God must be the ultimate deceiver? I can imagine that some may wish to argue that deceit in some cases is justifiable. But what about all the other subjectively nasty things we humans engage in? I can't imagine God as the the ultimate addict -- or are we going to have to get picky about which attributes are shared? Once you define God as the ultimate in all things, God becomes an incoherent mess of contradictions.

We seem to get by with all our different attributes at whatever min and max they are at.
God does the same without , I hope, going insane. He has help from all the souls in Heaven. Quite the plus.

The Bible tries to show His attributes and shows both His good and his evil side.

I like to say that the Bible is the tree of knowledge and both Christ and the Antichrist use it to speak to us. It is to us to determine who is saying what.
If these contradictions did not exist we would not be here today.

God told us to multiply and to learn of good and evil. We do both well. This could be a proof of His Perfection if you wanted to see it that way.

W have to see Him as Perfect in a continuous Perfect motion or evolution to a higher state.
Something like a newborn baby. It is Perfect and yet second by second evolves to it's next second of better Perfection.
To view God as a stagnant memory that never changes would be wrong.
This would mean that all the information or memory we bring to Heaven would be lost. Our lives would have no everlasting meaning.
God's very existence itself would have no meaning.
If that were the case then who would want or need a God.
Even if we had a proof of His existence, we would likely reject Him because He would, in a sence, have little to offer.

It may be that ID will show some the Perfection that our systems have and over time become a religion in it's own right. As yet I do not think they offer a philosophy to follow though. This may be good.

Let God evolve as you evolve.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

Scripture indicates that all of God's works are Perfect.

Which bits of scripture?

Scripture asks us to reach for Perfection.

Which bits of scripture?

As I said in the OP I dont know much about scripture. But I have an inkling that scripture does not support nor say that God is perfect. I suspect there is some Greek philosophy imposing itself on the concept of perfection, ideals etc, and that the notion of Gods perfection arises here and not out of scripture.

Youve given reasons why God should be perfect, or must be perfect, but Im looking to see if this notion of God really arises out of scripture as it is written; or does it require the theist construct some philosophical framework around scripture?

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Psalm 19:7
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.


Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Logic should have been enough in and of itself.

To not Give God the attribute of Perfection is silly.
He is not a Zeus.

Regards
DL

[Furrowed Brow]

Thank you Greatest I am. That was the kind of thing I was looking for.

2 Samuel 22:31 his way is perfect, the word
Deuteronomy 32:4 his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment:
Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried
Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure
Matthew 5:48 your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he

So it seems scripture clearly says that Gods judgements, word, law, testimony are perfect. That God in heaven is perfect. Gods work is perfect. That he is made perfect.

However I think we are going to have to dig into the original text because there are some problems with translation.

Before we go on Im going to have to say this is not my area at all, so Im hoping the scripture buffs here are going to kick in and help me out, but a bit of googling shows that in Mathew 5.48 the Greek word actually used means finished, complete, reached the end. Link here

So Id say the translation into the English word "perfect" is not a perfect fit. A little bit of selected translation to get the text to fit some implicit prejudices that require the text say God or Jesus is perfect.

Logic should have been enough in and of itself.

To not Give God the attribute of Perfection is silly.
He is not a Zeus.

Well from what I know of the OT. God is a bit like Zeus there. And it may be silly not to attribute the predicate perfection to God, or it may not be silly. Im trying to get a clear view of what scripture says, and what entails from what it says, not from additional philosophical structures put in place to make it less silly. Having come up against a translation problem over Mathew I'm now suspicious of later translations that may well be contaminated by some additional philosophising.

Anyone got any insights into the meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek used in scripture cited by GreatestIAm?

[Greatest I Am]

Furrowed Brow

I say that this premise is logical because if you try to think of God as less than Perfect then His works would be less than Perfect and He looses all claim to punish wrong doing.

If I build something Perfect then it will always do what it was built to do.

If I build something imperfect then I loose control of what it will do.
I cannot blame it for not doing what it was supposed to do because I built in the defect that allowed it to divert to something else.

Regards
DL

[Furrowed Brow]

Furrowed Brow

I say that this premise is logical because if you try to think of God as less than Perfect then His works would be less than Perfect and He looses all claim to punish wrong doing.

If I build something Perfect then it will always do what it was built to do.

If I build something imperfect then I loose control of what it will do.
I cannot blame it for not doing what it was supposed to do because I built in the defect that allowed it to divert to something else.

Regards
DL

Yeah. But you're giving me a logical rationalization. What I'm trying to get to is what scripture actually says. You've offered some examples. But at least one of those can be argued as not a straight translation. Perhaps the translators were thinking along the same line as yourself. But as I say, I'm trying to see if scripture really supports the kind of rationalisation you are offering.

[Greatest I Am]

Furrowed Brow

I say that this premise is logical because if you try to think of God as less than Perfect then His works would be less than Perfect and He looses all claim to punish wrong doing.

If I build something Perfect then it will always do what it was built to do.

If I build something imperfect then I loose control of what it will do.
I cannot blame it for not doing what it was supposed to do because I built in the defect that allowed it to divert to something else.

Regards
DL

Yeah. But you're giving me a logical rationalization. What I'm trying to get to is what scripture actually says. You've offered some examples. But at least one of those can be argued as not a straight translation. Perhaps the translators were thinking along the same line as yourself. But as I say, I'm trying to see if scripture really supports the kind of rationalisation you are offering.

You will probably not find much more because the general flow of scripture is that God has fouled up His initial Perfection and has to return to fix what ain't supposed to be broken in the first place.

This starts right from Genesis where most see us falling from grace and where i see us making a glorious leap towards knowledge and recognition of the wisdom of God.

Most are wrong in this wait and show little if any faith in their God to do anything right and that does not need repair.

Why they follow this loser of a God I do not know.

Regards
DL