September 11th

[Vladd44]

Today it is time for us to do it all over again.

Today is a time to enjoy politicians of both major political parties reduce the loss of 3000 people's lives to political fodder.

I cannot help but be reminded of an ad slogan for a brand of women's cigarettes in the early eighties. You've come a long ways baby.

To bad it was in the opposite direction than the one needed.

[bernee51]

Today it is time for us to do it all over again.

Today is a time to enjoy politicians of both major political parties reduce the loss of 3000 people's lives to political fodder.

I cannot help but be reminded of an ad slogan for a brand of women's cigarettes in the early eighties. You've come a long ways baby.

To bad it was in the opposite direction than the one needed.

And it is more of a pity that the 'why' it happened has never been addressed.

[Vladd44]

Well American Arrogance had absolutely nothing to do with it.

If you don't believe me, consider our next action a preemptive strike.

[Zzyzx]

.

And it is more of a pity that the 'why' it happened has never been addressed.

Bernee,

We don’t even know WHAT happened, let alone why. Nineteen men with box cutters repeatedly defeating the world’s most expensive and advanced air defense system does not square with reality. The “for public consumption version” of what happened is reduced to unacceptable levels by hiding information, misinformation, disinformation, confusion, publicity, etc, etc, by my standards.

The US has brought disrespect, shame and hate upon itself by fifty years of misguided (ignorant, arrogant and bullying) foreign policy. We have turned friends into neutrals and turned neutrals into enemies. It is as though we set out to alienate the other 95% of the world’s population – and have succeeded.

All of the wars the US has conducted since WWII were and are “undeclared wars” – presidential actions -- rather than congressional declaration of war as specified by the Constitution. Sixty years of repeated mistakes have taken their toll. Our attempts at economic imperialism have also run to the dead-end that was apparent to keen observers long ago. We did not learn by observing what happened to previous imperial nations -- Italy, Spain, Portugal, England, Holland, etc.

The US is paying a high price for its mistakes, both foreign and domestic.

Ease, entertainment and convenience have replaced hard work and industriousness. Physical labor has become unacceptable “drudge work” while “clean hands” work has been exalted. We have grown fat, soft and lazy. We are in denial. We place more emphasis on weight loss than on our school systems. We value entertainment above all other things.

We have become a “service economy” – selling each other hamburgers, insurance and lawsuits rather than producing to fill our needs. Our industry has been transferred “offshore” by US corporations in order to maximize profits to shareholders. Even agriculture in the former “breadbasket of the world” has declined relative to demand. We now import more value in food than we export.

An outstanding mistake has been to become the greatest debtor nation ever known. We borrow from anyone who will lend – and owe enough to unfriendly nations to give them the power to bankrupt the US at any time. Our debts cannot be paid. Our Ponzi scheme is falling apart. We have squandered the wealth and industry that was created by previous generations. Our economy is staggering.

We have borrowed to finance wars of aggression and occupation (a trillion dollars or two), to “throw money at” places or problems, to “buy friends” with money, to finance our life of leisure and convenience, and to flaunt our “wealth”. We borrow to spend as much on our military as all other nations of the world combined. We borrow to consume without producing. We borrow to acquire “toys: and to “vacation”. We save nothing at all.

For the last couple decades we have been setting an example of “Democracy” – how to NOT run one. We cannot even conduct fair and above reproach elections. We are driven by special interests rather than public interest. We have allowed terrible erosion of our constitutional rights in the name of “security”. We are AFRAID.

Most of the above has happened during my lifetime (born a couple years before the US entered WWII). My parents’ generation survived the Great Depression and the war to build a strong industrial economy and a good infrastructure. My generation and those that followed dropped the ball. Most cannot even admit that mistakes were made, much less address those mistakes, correct them where possible and avoid their repetition. Watch the denials begin.

I see only a faint glimmer of hope that the American people will turn things around and “bite the bullet” necessary. That glimmer is in the form of one “maverick” candidate who is running for president in 2008 – Ron Paul. He may be able to pull off a “Miracle” if he can be elected and can lead the nation back toward reality.

[Flail]

A band of Religious fanatics attacked us based upon their indoctrination that they were chosen by God according to the infallible word of their Holy Book....they attacked us because we are a Nation under a different indoctrination from another Holy Book......when will it end...

"All this fighting over who will be annointed, oh how can people be so blind."
Don Henley

Turn the Churches into soup kitchens.

[bernee51]

.

And it is more of a pity that the 'why' it happened has never been addressed.

Bernee,

We don’t even know WHAT happened, let alone why. Nineteen men with box cutters repeatedly defeating the world’s most expensive and advanced air defense system does not square with reality. The “for public consumption version” of what happened is reduced to unacceptable levels by hiding information, misinformation, disinformation, confusion, publicity, etc, etc, by my standards.

The US has brought disrespect, shame and hate upon itself by fifty years of misguided (ignorant, arrogant and bullying) foreign policy. We have turned friends into neutrals and turned neutrals into enemies. It is as though we set out to alienate the other 95% of the world’s population – and have succeeded.

All of the wars the US has conducted since WWII were and are “undeclared wars” – presidential actions -- rather than congressional declaration of war as specified by the Constitution. Sixty years of repeated mistakes have taken their toll. Our attempts at economic imperialism have also run to the dead-end that was apparent to keen observers long ago. We did not learn by observing what happened to previous imperial nations -- Italy, Spain, Portugal, England, Holland, etc.

The US is paying a high price for its mistakes, both foreign and domestic.

Ease, entertainment and convenience have replaced hard work and industriousness. Physical labor has become unacceptable “drudge work” while “clean hands” work has been exalted. We have grown fat, soft and lazy. We are in denial. We place more emphasis on weight loss than on our school systems. We value entertainment above all other things.

We have become a “service economy” – selling each other hamburgers, insurance and lawsuits rather than producing to fill our needs. Our industry has been transferred “offshore” by US corporations in order to maximize profits to shareholders. Even agriculture in the former “breadbasket of the world” has declined relative to demand. We now import more value in food than we export.

An outstanding mistake has been to become the greatest debtor nation ever known. We borrow from anyone who will lend – and owe enough to unfriendly nations to give them the power to bankrupt the US at any time. Our debts cannot be paid. Our Ponzi scheme is falling apart. We have squandered the wealth and industry that was created by previous generations. Our economy is staggering.

We have borrowed to finance wars of aggression and occupation (a trillion dollars or two), to “throw money at” places or problems, to “buy friends” with money, to finance our life of leisure and convenience, and to flaunt our “wealth”. We borrow to spend as much on our military as all other nations of the world combined. We borrow to consume without producing. We borrow to acquire “toys: and to “vacation”. We save nothing at all.

For the last couple decades we have been setting an example of “Democracy” – how to NOT run one. We cannot even conduct fair and above reproach elections. We are driven by special interests rather than public interest. We have allowed terrible erosion of our constitutional rights in the name of “security”. We are AFRAID.

Most of the above has happened during my lifetime (born a couple years before the US entered WWII). My parents’ generation survived the Great Depression and the war to build a strong industrial economy and a good infrastructure. My generation and those that followed dropped the ball. Most cannot even admit that mistakes were made, much less address those mistakes, correct them where possible and avoid their repetition. Watch the denials begin.

I see only a faint glimmer of hope that the American people will turn things around and “bite the bullet” necessary. That glimmer is in the form of one “maverick” candidate who is running for president in 2008 – Ron Paul. He may be able to pull off a “Miracle” if he can be elected and can lead the nation back toward reality.

Thanks for that David.

I am of the baby boomer generation. Here in Oz in the 50's we grew up with a mixed view of the USofA. On the one hand the country drew our respect, admiration and thanks for helping us in a dire situation. On the other, the GIs were seen as "overpaid, over sexed and over here".

The life style in the US (as portrayed by popular culture) was envied. When did that change? Was it post Kennedy? Did America lose its gloss and its image in the eye's of the 95% when they showed that it was a law unto it's own? Killing the president and invading innocent countries as a role model?

I have met, worked with and played with Americans - in countries as diverse as India and China. The people I have met have most often been generous to a fault and remarkably (and a little surprisingly) quite worldly. Perhaps it was a side effect of the expat life style. Though I have not spent a lot of time in the US itself, my observation, from discussion and personal experience, is that the general populace is intensely and terminally parochial. An education in the ways of the rest of the world would appear to be sorely needed.

I like you, have no idea of the 'truth' of 9/11. It was clearly not just a band of religious fanatics bound for paradise. They were merely the tool, who wielded the tool and why, especially why, are the questions that America should have reflected upon before embarking on missions of revenge and the ensuant geo-political power grab.

[upallnite]

"overpaid, over sexed and over here".

The first time I heard that was when I went to Oz. It was by an American about Marines.

9/11 (Then)
I was a reservist and working as an electrician when I first heard about the attack. I was fixing some lights at a sority house. (They were my favorite "call" job.) I left to check the news. As soon as I felt sure the news I had heard was correct I contacted my command to see if there was any type of call up for us. I got my list of Marines and contacted them to let them know any information would not be passed until the next formation.

I lived in a city that the people my age mostly did not like Marine. I don't blame them, Marines are rude, cocky, and steal/mistreat their girlfriends. I was use to not mentioning I am a Marine until after people got to know me. 9/11 changed that. People that knew I am a Marine began "outing" me as a Marine to everyone. Everyone became happy to have a Jarhead around. I hate fake ass people.

9/11-2004
I spent alot of time preparing my self for combat. Physically, mentally, and emotionally I did everything I could to prepare. I worked out everyday. I took advanced training in hand-to-hand combat, heavy weapons, small arms, field survival, and worked on picking up an extra stripe ASAP. I avoided reading or even talking to any one that would disparage me emotionally. The enemy did not deserve to live. I could have been told anyone was the enemy with the exception of only my family and fellow Marines. I would have shoot anyone else without blinking. I went to war prepared to do anything.

9/11 (now)
I looked at the WHY I went to war. The more I ask why or how dealing with 9/11 the less I feel I know. I read all the reports. I look at anything put out by someone in a position to put forth evidence. I watch conspiracy theory videos and try to disprove them. If I believed the videos I would be in a tower with my rifle. But they do pose questions that I cannot find answers to. Why woln't someone just answer the questions posed by experts?

[Vladd44]

We don’t even know WHAT happened, let alone why.

I believe our actions post Sept 11th have done a very good job of explaining to the world the why part.

It is incredible to me that we have allowed the event to be such a success for our enemies. We have shown ourselves to be exactly what the "terrorists" said we were. We have acted as mature as an annoyed monkey flinging his own feces at the passerby.

I see only a faint glimmer of hope that the American people will turn things around and “bite the bullet” necessary. That glimmer is in the form of one “maverick” candidate who is running for president in 2008 – Ron Paul.

Ron Paul's previous run for presidency was what first turned me on to the Libertarian Party. He also happens to be the only one from both the rep and dem party that I would be happy to have as a president.

Before Bush 43 I was a libertarian with lingering republican sympathies who despised democrats. Now I am a libertarian who wouldn't urinate on the RNC if they were on fire who despises democrats. This turn of event leaves the despised party as being more liked than the other.

And of all things, I would rather see a republican candidate (Ron Paul) win over any dem. I take solace knowing there are members of the RNC that would rather lose in 08 and let a dem win than see Ron Paul president.

[Zzyzx]

.

When did that change? Was it post Kennedy? Did America lose its gloss and its image in the eye's of the 95% when they showed that it was a law unto it's own? Killing the president and invading innocent countries as a role model?

Bernee,

Here are some personal observations and opinions from an individual citizen.

I do not think that the Kennedy assassinations (three of them now, IMO) mark the beginning of any major change. Instead, they demonstrate that we are not who we say we are or who we think we are. We claim to be a nation of law but we lie. When the stakes are large, we are a nation of violence. That did not begin with the Kennedy era; it began in the earliest days of this country. It is shown in the genocide of Native Americans, in the prevalence of frontier “justice” and vigilantism, in the War Between the States, in the assassination of President Lincoln.

We are not a nation of law. We are a nation of violence that CLAIMS to be a nation of law. Just recently we have flaunted international law repeatedly, broken arms limitation treaties, and even stooped to torturing helpless prisoners. Those are not the actions of a law abiding people – or a brave people – or a proud people.

We, the citizens, have no idea of the real reasons we are fighting wars in the Middle East, killing thousands of civilians, destroying nations’ infrastructure and spending trillions of dollars borrowed from unfriendly nations. Why are we doing that? Are we that afraid of shadows and “threats” from nations that have one percent of our military power? What are the real reasons? Protecting the petrodollar? Protecting our “friend” Israel? Protecting our supply of oil? Attempting to dominate the region? We, the citizens and the GIs who are fighting the wars, have no idea.

Within my lifetime the US has repeatedly demonstrated its weakness and its tendency to resort to violence rather than using reason, justice and diplomacy. We dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki civilians, claiming that doing so saved thousands of American lives by avoiding an invasion. That story does not wash because Japan had already offered to surrender (but asked only to be allowed to keep its emperor). The real intent in using the big bombs was apparently a show of power – particularly to Russian leaders (who built the bomb soon afterward anyway), and to frighten other nations.

Then we got involved in the Korean War, and at home had the anti-communist hysteria of the 40s and 50s, and of course the Cold War. The assassination of President Kennedy was a massive blow to the US in the early 60s. Many of us are not at all satisfied with the “official version” of that event any more than with the 9/11 event. Very quickly thereafter Lyndon Johnson defrauded the country into becoming involved in the Vietnam War with the falsified “Gulf of Tonkin” non-incident. That was a very divisive and distracting time for our country.

The Nixon disgrace was another heavy blow. We staggered along for a bit and then Daddy Bush pushed through his presidential (undeclared) war. We had the boom and bust of the 90s and the resulting radical moves to avoid recession (insanely low interest set by the Federal Reserve) that now precipitates the collapse of the real estate market and the mortgage industry (with associated spin-offs in the derivative markets).

Meanwhile, our currency was debauched in 1964 when silver was removed or reduced in our currency and again in 1972 when we decoupled the dollar completely from gold. The economic juggernaut had been set in motion far earlier -- in 1913 with the creation of the Federal Reserve (neither federal nor a reserve, but a central credit and regulatory agency owned by individuals and foreign banks, that controls the US economy).

Beginning with the new millennium, we really lost our way. The election of that year was NOT just and fair. The person who occupies the White House was appointed rather then being elected. The 2004 election was just as crooked. We needed international monitors and observers instead of rigged polling and dishonest electronic voting machines. Since then our Constitution has become “just a piece of paper” – and Americans couldn’t care less that their freedoms have been sacrificed to “The War on Terrorism” (and “The War on Drugs” and the “Wars of Aggression and Occupation”).

In the midst of the political trauma, we had the events of 9/11 and we retaliated by invaded a nation that had no connection with the event. The Middle East wars have become a quagmire like Vietnam because we never had a clear plan or an exit policy. Now we are poised to attack another nation that poses no credible threat to our nation – possibly with nuclear weapons. Have we lost our minds?

Increasingly we allowed corporations and special interest groups to overpower our political system. With power and wealth concentrated in the hands of corporations and the “elite”, individual citizens have been reduced in importance – and shareholders and politicians have been elevated.

Our schools are an international disgrace. Our central cities are often not habitable by self-respecting or law-respecting people. Our infrastructure is not being maintained or improved. We have serious, unaddressed, problems with health care insurance and with poverty and homelessness (while the elite further distance themselves from the masses, economically, politically and socially).

Perhaps I can summarize my attitude with a modification of an old statement, “They don’t make Americans like they used to – and they never did”.

Do I “Hate America”? Absolutely not. I care deeply about the past, present and future of my country – and have studied it far more than most citizens. That is how I attempt to understand who and what we are in reality – not in myth or in self-deception. We cannot overcome our limitations and problems while in denial and while believing myths about ourselves and our relation to the rest of the world. Repeating patriotic slogans and supporting the status quo doesn’t lead to solutions.

I hold religion partially accountable for our unrealistic notions and attitudes. Believing, as many do, that “god is our leader”, makes us at least partially theocracy. When our president “talks to god” and gets instructions to invade other nations, we have lost our grip on reality and have engaged in wars based at least partially upon religion. When we have delusions of superiority because we are supposedly “A Christian Nation”, we are perverting our beliefs and our character.

In my opinion most Americans are “blissfully and willfully ignorant” of the real world and of their rightful place as citizens of the world – not rulers of the world or policemen of the world. . Five percent of the world’s population cannot expect to prevail over ninety-five percent indefinitely. As a nation we prefer myth to reality, fiction to honesty, image over substance, and ease over accomplishment. We constantly delude ourselves with our false notions of who we are and what we are.

The bills for our folly are due and we have no ability to pay – but we have plenty of nukes and the world’s most expensive military (that was impotent when it was needed on 9/11 and is unable to defeat guerilla opponents as demonstrated in Iraq and Vietnam).

[methylatedghosts]

Just thought I'd post these lyrics in rememberance of the lives that were lost on that day. I think it's a beautiful song, and was written not long after the event.

Dream Theater - Sacrificed Sons

Walls are closing
Anxiously
Channel surfing
Frantically

Burning City
Smoke and fire
Planes we're certain
Faith inspired

No clues
A complete surprise
Who'll be
Coming home tonight

Heads are turning
Towards the sky
Towers crumble
Heroes die

Who would wish this on our people
And proclaim that his will be done
Scriptures they heed have misled them
All praise their sacrificed sons
All praise their sacrificed sons

Teach them what
To think and feel
Your ways so
Enlightening

Words they preach
I can't relate
If God's true love
Are acts of hate

Who would wish this on our people
And proclaim that his will be done
Scriptures they heed have misled them
All praise their sacrificed sons
All praise their sacrifices sons

God on high
Our mistake
Will makind
Be extinct?

There's no time
Time to waste
Who serves the truth
For heaven's sake