The enemy of our Creator

[placebofactor]

Did Lucifer know the plans of the godhead to create a heaven and an earth? If he knew the plans and knew the Son of God, Jesus Christ was to rule over the creation, was this what Lucifer's rebellion was all about? Scriptures give us a small glimpse into angelic awareness before creation.

Job 38:4–7, The LORD (Jesus) asks Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Verse 7, “when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” The verse implies that angelic beings (including Lucifer) witnessed the creation of the earth. They were not ignorant of it; they rejoiced at its unfolding.

Colossians 1:16–17, Speaking of the Son, “For by Him (Jesus) all things were created... whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through Him and for Him.” The verse affirms the Son’s central role in creation. Because Lucifer was among the “rulers” created by the Son, he would have known that the Son was not only the agent of creation but also its rightful heir.

Did Lucifer know the Son would rule? John 17:5, Jesus prays to his Father, “Glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” This pre-creation glory suggests a known hierarchy within the Godhead. If Lucifer were in the divine council, Ezekiel 28 imagery, he would have witnessed the Son’s exalted position and future authority.

Ezekiel 28:13, "You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering ---." Verse 14, "I have set thee so: you were upon the holy mountain of God;" Verse 15, "You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in thee."

Verse 17-18, "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness:" "You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities."

Note, in Psalm 2, it’s the Son who is speaking and announcing the decree. The text itself makes that clear, Verse 7, “I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me (the Son).”
Without question, it means the speaker is the Son, not the Father, and not the psalmist.

Lucifer was the “light bearer,” seeking to replace the true Light. He said in Isaiah 14:14, “I will be like the Most High” not just a claim to divinity, but a mimicry of the Son’s image and authority. Lucifer’s rebellion wasn’t random; it was a strategic attempt to preempt the Son’s rule, to hijack the image-bearing creation, and to enthrone himself as the counterfeit “Most High.”

[1213]

Did Lucifer know the plans of the godhead to create a heaven and an earth? If he knew the plans and knew the Son of God, Jesus Christ was to rule over the creation, was this what Lucifer's rebellion was all about? Scriptures give us a small glimpse into angelic awareness before creation.

Job 38:4–7, The LORD (Jesus) asks Job,...

It is YHWH who asks, not Jesus.

[placebofactor]

Did Lucifer know the plans of the godhead to create a heaven and an earth? If he knew the plans and knew the Son of God, Jesus Christ was to rule over the creation, was this what Lucifer's rebellion was all about? Scriptures give us a small glimpse into angelic awareness before creation.

Job 38:4–7, The LORD (Jesus) asks Job,...

It is YHWH who asks, not Jesus.

1213, come on now, let's use some common sense. Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible, written between 1500 and 2000 B.C., and if no man has seen the Father, or heard his voice, then it had to be the Son the man Job was speaking with. Verse 1, "And the LORD (YHWH) answered Job. I don't care if the LORD spoke out of a whirlwind or from the top of a mountain, or from the depths of the ocean; no man has ever heard the Father's voice until Matthew 3:17, some 2000 years after the book of Job was written, when he said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

[1213]

...if no man has seen the Father, or heard his voice, then it had to be the Son the man Job was speaking with. ...

Sorry, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think so.

[Capbook]

...if no man has seen the Father, or heard his voice, then it had to be the Son the man Job was speaking with. ...

Sorry, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think so.

Jesus said it 1213, in John 5:37, revealed to Samuel 3:21, and in Zechariah, as believed the Father was the speaker, but state, "they will look on Me whom they have pierced."

John 5:37  And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 

1Sa 3:21  And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, because the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD. 

Zec 12:10  "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 

[placebofactor]

...if no man has seen the Father, or heard his voice, then it had to be the Son the man Job was speaking with. ...

Sorry, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think so.

1213: The Witnesses claim that the Father created all "other" things through his Son. Now, straighten me out on something. What exactly did the Son do in the process of the creation? Now, don't tell me the Son just stood there, and the Father spoke through his Son. That makes no sense. Say something to me that makes sense. Simple question: Was it the Son, or the Father, who said in Genesis "Let there be light," and who was it that spoke the words in verse 6, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters. Explain in English, no fancy talk or words that are not found in the bible. Explain so us average people who study the Bible can understand better what John 1:3, and Colossians 1:16 say.

John 1:3, "All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not anything made that was made."

Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth,"

[myth-one.com]

John 1:3, "All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not anything made that was made."

A warning from Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

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1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

The word "him" in verse 3 refers to the Word, not Jesus. Jesus was the "Word made flesh" and did not exist until billions of years after the Word created the heavens and the earth.

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #7]

Let me get this straight, @myth-one.com, are you saying that the Word was fully God before he also became fully human as well as all-God in the person of Jesus? If so, I agree with you. If not, what are you saying?

[1213]

1213: The Witnesses claim that the Father created all "other" things through his Son. ...

It is the Bible that says "All things have been created through him". Col. 1:14-16

What exactly did the Son do in the process of the creation? Now, don't tell me the Son just stood there, and the Father spoke through his Son. That makes no sense. Say something to me that makes sense. Simple question: Was it the Son, or the Father, who said in Genesis "Let there be light,"...

I know only what is said in the Bible, about the creation. The Bible says it was "Elohim" who said "Let there be light". By what i know, Elohim can mean: god, judge, goddess, great, mighty, angels, exceeding, godly. That is why I think it could be that it was Jesus who said so. However, Jesus says:

...Most certainly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
John 5:19
... I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things. He who sent me is with me. The Father hasn’t left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.
John 8:28-29

That is why I believe, if things were created through Jesus, it happened by God's will and power.

Should we not believe what Jesus says?

[1213]

...
John 5:37  And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 
...

"You have not heard" is not the same as "none has heard".