modalism - obedient unto death on a cross

[Wootah]

Biblical Data on Jesus' Obedience and DeathThe key text is Philippians 2:5–8 (ESV):"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Supporting passages:John 5:30 (Jesus): "I can do nothing on my own... I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me."
John 6:38: "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me."
Hebrews 5:8: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered."

These show Jesus actively submitting His will to the Father's will, culminating in the cross.Does Obedience Imply One Being or Two?Obedience requires distinct centers of will:A single person cannot "obey" himself in the same way (e.g., "I obey my own command" is tautological, not relational submission).
Jesus' prayers (e.g., John 17:1–5, Luke 22:42 – "not my will, but yours be done") show real interpersonal dialogue, not monologue.

Thus, obedience presupposes two distinct agents (Father and Son) in relationship.Modalism vs. This DataModalism (Sabellianism) teaches:God is one person who manifests in three sequential modes (Father → Son → Spirit).
No eternal distinction of persons; only one "face" at a time.

If modalism is true:The Son is not a distinct person from the Father.
Jesus' obedience is the Father obeying Himself through a human mask.
This collapses the relational dynamic into self-talk, undermining:The inter-Trinitarian love (John 17:24 – "you loved me before the foundation of the world").
The real cost of submission (Gethsemane’s anguish becomes theatrical).

Conclusion: More or Less Likely?Less likely.
Jesus' obedience unto death on the cross requires real distinction of persons (Father and Son as two centers of will). Modalism reduces this to one person role-playing, which contradicts the relational submission in Scripture. The biblical data fits Trinitarianism (one God, three co-eternal persons) far better than modalism.

^ From a question to Grok.

Considering the biblical data and that Jesus was obedient unto death on a cross. Is it more or less likely that modalism is true? Does obedience imply one being or two? Conversely consider what disobedience implies as well.

[Capbook]

I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me.”

To those words I highlighted blue seems to indicate your living someone cannot read "prayer by mind." He need audible prayers.
Our true God knows what's we are thinking even our prayers by mind.

[OneJack]

I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me.”

To those words I highlighted blue seems to indicate your living someone cannot read "prayer by mind." He need audible prayers.
Our true God knows what's we are thinking even our prayers by mind.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

"No one else will be saved, even if you're part of My church, which they now call the Church of Christ, but the truth is, it's about the people.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to OneJack in post #52]

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

OneJack, if [Jesus] were the Father as you claim, why would he then say 'my father' here in one of your excerpts.

[OneJack]

Peace to you,

[Replying to OneJack in post #52]

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

OneJack, if [Jesus] were the Father as you claim, why would he then say 'my father' here in one of your excerpts.

That’s in reference to His past incarnation, when He dwelt in the Son. The Lord sometimes speaks as if He were still in the flesh of the Son of God, interchangeably with His true nature—the Almighty God.

[OneJack]

[Replying to tam in post #50]

I hear the voice of Christ, the Good Shepherd, the Son of God.

Since the ‘small still voice’ denies the name Jesus, who is the Christ and Good Shepherd, what you’ve been hearing until now is not the true voice of Christ, but only the voice of a deceiving spirit who falsely claims to be the Christ. In reality, he is a ‘false Christ,’ for the reason cited above. He has deceived you with lies about Christ’s true identity, which is why you’ve been drawn so far from Jesus, the Almighty God.

I didn't die because there is no such thing as 'if you hear my voice you will die.

How could you die from a voice of a deceiving spirit? You yourself acknowledged he is not the most High God, didn’t you? Your outright rejection of ‘'if you hear my voice you will die” is a clear proof that you don’t hear anything yet from the Almighty God, whose name is Jesus.

People who heard God's voice (as mentioned in Exodus) also didn't die, but they were afraid they WOULD die so they asked that Moses ONLY hear God's voice, and then Moses could tell them what God said.

This is nothing but your opinion because the people heard thunder instead of the voice of God, which even Moses was not able to hear, but the voice of an angel.

The big deal in listening to His voice is that this is something HIS sheep DO. If one is HIS sheep, one listens to HIS voice.

If he were Jesus, it, surely, would be a big deal. But he isn’t Jesus and it came out from him. Instead, a voice of a deceiving spirit denying Jesus, how can that be a big deal? Also, a voice of a deceiving spirit pretending to be Christ and the Good Shepherd robbing the Lord Jesus of His sheep, do you take that as a big deal? For as long as he denies Jesus, he is nothing but one of the many deceiving spirits lurking around looking for their would-be victims.

By the way, the Lord Jesus told us that He will not reveal Himself to only one person; there shall be witnesses and manifestations that will attest to His nature as the Almighty God.

I call Christ my Lord because that is what He is. "Still small voice" is just a description.

Did he say to you the phrase “still small voice?” Until now you can’t post his exact utterance on his identity for you to believe him who you say he is, how is that? Believing a spirit that is not God is dangerous to our souls. Christ is the Messiah, the Almighty God and we should only believe in one Supreme Spirit Being - The Almighty God, whose name is Jesus - if we want to be saved.

The Father is the Almighty God, that is true. His Son, however, is His Heir - and that Son has been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. For You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him."

The reason for this, as the Lord taught us, is because He is the Father and Almighty God who was in the Son during that time, as well as the verse that says ‘no one comes to the Father but me.’

The Son of God is certainly not 'long gone'. After His death and resurrection and ascension, the Son is still alive and still speaking:

“To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.

Read between the lines for you to see that what John saw in his vision is not the Son of God but the Spirit whom Jesus used to speak with John.

12.And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

The Son of God was a human like us, how could he be the spirit one who looks like a son of man whom John saw in his vision? It was Jesus, by and through that Spirit, who spoke with and gave John His revelations for future events hence the red shaded portion above as well as Revelations of Jesus Christ.

Now I am well aware that I cannot convince you of anything.

Having the Lord Jesus on my side strengthens my belief in God, who is Himself. There is really no way that a deceiving spirit, who is not God, can convince me of anything?

No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them. If there is a verse in Christ's own words that contradicts something you post, you ignore it or claim it is in the bible so it's rumor-mongering.

Actually, I can set aside the whole Bible in favor of the real and eternally living Christ Jesus, who is now our Pastor and Teacher. He is more than enough to guide and save us always, and therefore we need nothing but Him alone. The statement, ‘No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them,’ was addressed directly to the Pharisees and the Jews who were with Jesus when they totally rejected Him. It’s as if Jesus was saying, ‘It’s only by the Father’s mercy drawing you to me that you’ll come to me.’

Even though you use verses yourself. I f I were to say that the Spirit (Christ) told me something that contradicts something you post, you will call it a lie.

I tell you, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Share with us what the ‘small still voice’ is saying in this regard. I do not conclude without reading the basis for rejection and/or acceptance of any claims.

I'm not sure how much more there is to be said.

It depends on the truck-load evidence you may still possibly share with us.

I put my trust and faith in Christ because He is the Truth. Because He is the One to whom my Father led me when I was seeking truth, and when I asked the Father to lead me where He wanted me to be. Because He has always spoken truth to me. Because I know He keeps His promises, as He has kept them with me. Because He loves me and even gave

The ‘small still voice’ is not God, how could he be the Truth, who alone, is only the Lord Jesus Christ whom he denies? He who is not God cannot be the Truth, no matter how many million times he claims he’s the Christ! You haven’t heard yet the Father, how do you now say He (Father) led you to the ‘small still voice?’ If you were able to speak with the Father, He would not lead you to any one spirit nor to the Son who is long gone, but to Himself alone because He was the Spirit that was then in the Son.

But this is untrue:

These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. Rev 2:18

He also calls God both His God and His Father after His death, resurrection and ascension:

The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. Rev 3:5

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Though you quoted verses in Revelation, the rest that you said are just your opinion on John’s narratives, which I coined ‘rumor mongering’ or ‘lumping the dough.’

Again, read between the lines, what John saw was a Spirit who looked like a son of man, not ‘the Son of Man’ per se, who asked Thomas to put his hands in His (the Sin) body when the Lord Jesus, through His power, made the physical body of the Son penetrated the wall in entering the room where the apostles gathered after the resurrection of the Son of God. The Son of God had no eyes like what John saw in his vision.

Obviously, what John saw was the manifestation of Jesus in speaking with him regarding the former’s Revelations, which He gave to him (John). Again, the Son of God is long gone and he is not a spirit being, contrary to the nature of the ‘small still voice’ who continues to deceive you and draw you away from Jesus. Wake up tammy dear!

[Capbook]

I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me.”

To those words I highlighted blue seems to indicate your living someone cannot read "prayer by mind." He need audible prayers.
Our true God knows what's we are thinking even our prayers by mind.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

"No one else will be saved, even if you're part of My church, which they now call the Church of Christ, but the truth is, it's about the people.

Do he means Commandments written in the Bible your living someone rejects?

[OneJack]

I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me.”

To those words I highlighted blue seems to indicate your living someone cannot read "prayer by mind." He need audible prayers.
Our true God knows what's we are thinking even our prayers by mind.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

"No one else will be saved, even if you're part of My church, which they now call the Church of Christ, but the truth is, it's about the people.

Do he means Commandments written in the Bible your living someone rejects?

Definitely not, come to Jesus and get them from Him if you want to follow Him.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to OneJack in post #52]

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

OneJack, if [Jesus] were the Father as you claim, why would he then say 'my father' here in one of your excerpts.

That’s in reference to His past incarnation, when He dwelt in the Son. The Lord sometimes speaks as if He were still in the flesh of the Son of God, interchangeably with His true nature—the Almighty God.

No, that is something you have added, an interpretation or spin.

If Christ speaks as if He were still the Son of God, it is because He IS still the Son of God. As He does in Revelation. He Himself - the Son of God.

**

Just as when Christ said, "My sheep listen to my voice."

You aren't listening to His voice. You even admit this openly, but then turn around and claim He did not mean what He said.

He meant what He said. His sheep listen to HIS voice.

[Capbook]

I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me.”

To those words I highlighted blue seems to indicate your living someone cannot read "prayer by mind." He need audible prayers.
Our true God knows what's we are thinking even our prayers by mind.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

"No one else will be saved, even if you're part of My church, which they now call the Church of Christ, but the truth is, it's about the people.

Do he means Commandments written in the Bible your living someone rejects?

Definitely not, come to Jesus and get them from Him if you want to follow Him.

Are the Commandments taught by your living someone the same with the Bible Commandments?

[OneJack]

To those words I highlighted blue seems to indicate your living someone cannot read "prayer by mind." He need audible prayers.
Our true God knows what's we are thinking even our prayers by mind.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

"Remember, if before the world was your ally, when you're with Me, the world will hate you because you're no longer of this world, but I have chosen you to spread My holy word. Remember, in all that you do, I am behind you. Remember, every move you make, every whisper of your heart, every cry of your soul, I hear it, so you can't hide anything, even what you don't utter with your lips, I will know. And remember, no one will be saved except those who are faithful to Me, who call upon Me, who follow the will of My Father, follow My will, follow My commandments, worship none other but Me, do all that I command with a willing heart, and that is My church, the Church of Christ.

"No one else will be saved, even if you're part of My church, which they now call the Church of Christ, but the truth is, it's about the people.

Do he means Commandments written in the Bible your living someone rejects?

Definitely not, come to Jesus and get them from Him if you want to follow Him.

Are the Commandments taught by your living someone the same with the Bible Commandments?

One thing is certain, Mr. Capbook: Jesus is not the Bible. It’s your choice: Jesus or the Bible.