Spiritual Israel, or 144,000 Jews?

[placebofactor]

My question is, “Who are the 144,000?
Following is Jehovah’s promise to his people, Israel:

Ezekiel 37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile nations) whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (May 14, 1948) I will make them (12 Tribes) one nation --- they all shall have one shepherd (Jesus), they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, -----I (the LORD) will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant --- And the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

A 7-year covenant of peace with Israel fulfills Daniel 9:27, Jesus is the covenant, and the messenger of the covenant.

Scriptures contain 29 lists of the 12 tribes of Israel in both the Old and New Testaments. Never are more than 12 tribes mentioned. When one tribe is left out, another is inserted, usually the tribe of Levi. From Levi came the priest.

Revelation 7 mentions 12 tribes numbering 144,000. Is there any justification for spiritualizing the number or the names of the tribes in these passages? Never in scripture are the 12 tribes represented as the church.
In Genesis 32:28, the Lord changes Jacob’s name to Israel. Jacob his earthly name, Israel his heavenly name. The 12 sons of Jacob were born of four mothers, Jacob being the common father. Leah and Rachel were Jacob’s wives, and Bilhah and Zilpah were his concubines.

In Exodus 28:21-29, 39:14, the 12 tribes were on the breastplate of the high priest, twelve precious stones arranged in four rows, each name engraved on a stone.

Raëlism, states that the chosen people, 144,000 will continue humanity in case of a disaster.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be spiritual Israel.
Mormons believe they are the 144,000

So, what is the truth?

[onewithhim]

My question is, “Who are the 144,000?
Following is Jehovah’s promise to his people, Israel:

Ezekiel 37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile nations) whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (May 14, 1948) I will make them (12 Tribes) one nation --- they all shall have one shepherd (Jesus), they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, -----I (the LORD) will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant --- And the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

A 7-year covenant of peace with Israel fulfills Daniel 9:27, Jesus is the covenant, and the messenger of the covenant.

Scriptures contain 29 lists of the 12 tribes of Israel in both the Old and New Testaments. Never are more than 12 tribes mentioned. When one tribe is left out, another is inserted, usually the tribe of Levi. From Levi came the priest.

Revelation 7 mentions 12 tribes numbering 144,000. Is there any justification for spiritualizing the number or the names of the tribes in these passages? Never in scripture are the 12 tribes represented as the church.
In Genesis 32:28, the Lord changes Jacob’s name to Israel. Jacob his earthly name, Israel his heavenly name. The 12 sons of Jacob were born of four mothers, Jacob being the common father. Leah and Rachel were Jacob’s wives, and Bilhah and Zilpah were his concubines.

In Exodus 28:21-29, 39:14, the 12 tribes were on the breastplate of the high priest, twelve precious stones arranged in four rows, each name engraved on a stone.

Raëlism, states that the chosen people, 144,000 will continue humanity in case of a disaster.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be spiritual Israel.
Mormons believe they are the 144,000

So, what is the truth?

Marke: When God destroyed the world by water in Noah's day, He spared only 8 souls, not because those were the only souls destined to go to heaven, but because 8 souls were all He chose to continue life from pre-flood to post-flood. Likewise, God will select and spare 144,000 Jews to live through the tribulation as the rest of the human world is destroyed.

Almost comical. What about the scriptures that show that people will be living on the earth forever? And I dare say that it will be more than 144,000. In fact it is the 144,000 who will be reigning with Christ in heaven.

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD [Jehovah], they shall inherit the earth....But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37: 9,11, KJV)

"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever." (Psalm 37:29, KJV)

You have understood this in reverse. It is the 144,000 who will be in heaven to reign with Christ, and everyone else will live on the earth forever.

[onewithhim]

He will select 144,000 Jews to live throught the judgment

I don't agree.


JESUS &144,000 RULERS = GOD'S KINGDOM GOVERNMENT


DOES REVELATION 14:3 INDICATE THE 144,000 WILL RESIDE IN HEAVEN?

Yes. Note the following reasons ....

1. If they are not on earth (or in the physical realm/universe) they are in the spiritual realm. Biblically, there is nowhere else for them to be.

2. The scripture explains that the 144K says they stand with the lamb. If we take the lamb to refer to Jesus who was resurrected to be with "our Father who art in HEAVEN" ...then it is a given that the 144,000 are pictured where God and Jesus are... ie, in heaven.

3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion

HEBREWS 12:22 NIV

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

CONCLUSION : There is ample scriptural support to conclude that in symbolic language the 144,000 are indeed pictured in Revelation as being in HEAVEN.




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HOW are the 144,000 going to assist Jesus from heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1005585

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HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000

Jehovah witness, I have a question for you: From the time the 144,000 Jews of the 12 tribes of Israel (that's what the Bible clearly states) are called together to be given the mark of the Father on their foreheads Revelation 7, until they are called in Revelation 14 to Mt. Zion by the Lord Jesus, how much time has passed? Continue reading before you answer.

I say they will be marked with the Father's name, and then called to meet Jesus on the mount of Sion before the "Time of Jacobs trouble begins, a period of 3 1/2 years. What will they be doing? Keep in mind, the chapters and verses have been put in by men, but the events run together from verse to verse.

You have all that mixed up. You are actually talking about the time that the Jews were in Babylon and dispersed throughout the known world. That is what it means. The 31/2 years you mention are the 31/2 years of Jesus' ministry.
Before that, The seven "weeks" [years] means the Jews will return and rebuild the temple 70 years after 607 B.C. This is what happened. After this the Messiah comes, in 33 A.D. The Abrahamic Covenant was still in force for the many for 7 years; at the half of the 7 years Jesus fulfilled the Law and sacrificed himself for mankind, thus causing sacrifice and gift offerings to cease. You are a few hundred years behind in time. These verses in Daniel allow us to figure out just when Jesus would show up (in 33 A.D.), according to Bible chronology, and not according to false teachers in this world.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #15]

I copied this from the Watchtowers Bible and Tract Society 1971 Edition of the Bible Aid.
That a day can be longer than twenty-four hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks, in part, of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. Ascribing not just twenty-four hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the geological evidence found in the earth itself."

It appears to me in the last sentence the teaching of evolution is more important than God's word.

Not at all. Quite the opposite. JWs do not believe in Evolution at all.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #15]

I copied this from the Watchtowers Bible and Tract Society 1971 Edition of the Bible Aid.
That a day can be longer than twenty-four hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks, in part, of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. Ascribing not just twenty-four hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the geological evidence found in the earth itself."

It appears to me in the last sentence the teaching of evolution is more important than God's word. Also, my nephew called back and told me, "Yes, each day is 1000 years" agreeing with your Bible Aid.

With all due respect, the quotation you cited does not say "each day is 1000 years" . Both you and your nephew need to read the passage again. Carefully.

My two nephews and my brother-in-law are elders in your organization. They have been Witnesses for 45 years, several years before my mother passed away, who was also a Witness. Because the article refers to 2 Peter 3:8, what else are we to think but each day is equivalent to 1000 years. If they disagree with that, then they should have never used 2 Peter as a reference point; don't you think?

Let me ask you, how many thousands of years do you believe are represented by one day?

That means that time is very different to God than it is to us. 1,000 years is nothing to him. It's not saying that it is set in stone that 1,000 years is literally a day to God. A "day" means an undisclosed period of time, perhaps many thousands of years.

[marke]

My question is, “Who are the 144,000?
Following is Jehovah’s promise to his people, Israel:

Ezekiel 37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile nations) whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (May 14, 1948) I will make them (12 Tribes) one nation --- they all shall have one shepherd (Jesus), they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, -----I (the LORD) will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant --- And the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

A 7-year covenant of peace with Israel fulfills Daniel 9:27, Jesus is the covenant, and the messenger of the covenant.

Scriptures contain 29 lists of the 12 tribes of Israel in both the Old and New Testaments. Never are more than 12 tribes mentioned. When one tribe is left out, another is inserted, usually the tribe of Levi. From Levi came the priest.

Revelation 7 mentions 12 tribes numbering 144,000. Is there any justification for spiritualizing the number or the names of the tribes in these passages? Never in scripture are the 12 tribes represented as the church.
In Genesis 32:28, the Lord changes Jacob’s name to Israel. Jacob his earthly name, Israel his heavenly name. The 12 sons of Jacob were born of four mothers, Jacob being the common father. Leah and Rachel were Jacob’s wives, and Bilhah and Zilpah were his concubines.

In Exodus 28:21-29, 39:14, the 12 tribes were on the breastplate of the high priest, twelve precious stones arranged in four rows, each name engraved on a stone.

Raëlism, states that the chosen people, 144,000 will continue humanity in case of a disaster.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be spiritual Israel.
Mormons believe they are the 144,000

So, what is the truth?

Marke: When God destroyed the world by water in Noah's day, He spared only 8 souls, not because those were the only souls destined to go to heaven, but because 8 souls were all He chose to continue life from pre-flood to post-flood. Likewise, God will select and spare 144,000 Jews to live through the tribulation as the rest of the human world is destroyed.

Almost comical. What about the scriptures that show that people will be living on the earth forever? And I dare say that it will be more than 144,000. In fact it is the 144,000 who will be reigning with Christ in heaven.

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD [Jehovah], they shall inherit the earth....But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37: 9,11, KJV)

"The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever." (Psalm 37:29, KJV)

You have understood this in reverse. It is the 144,000 who will be in heaven to reign with Christ, and everyone else will live on the earth forever.

Marke: There seems to be some confusion here. What do you think will be happening to the '144,000' when God destroys the universe that now is?

[JehovahsWitness]

Marke: There seems to be some confusion here. What do you think will be happening to the '144,000' when God destroys the universe that now is?

God is NOT going to destroy the the universe that now is, he is only going to destroy the wicked.

[marke]

Marke: There seems to be some confusion here. What do you think will be happening to the '144,000' when God destroys the universe that now is?

God is NOT going to destroy the the universe that now is, he is only going to destroy the wicked.

Marke: I conclude something different from the Bible.

2 Peter 3:11-13
King James Version
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[JehovahsWitness]

Marke: There seems to be some confusion here. What do you think will be happening to the '144,000' when God destroys the universe that now is?

God is NOT going to destroy the the universe that now is, he is only going to destroy the wicked.

Marke: I conclude something different from the Bible.

2 Peter 3:11-13
King James Version
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

That's symbolism; those verses should not be taken literally.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE PLANET EARTH, .GOD'S KINGDOM and ... EVERLASTING LIFE

[EYR]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

Quote: Ezekiel 37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile nations) whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land.

What Ezekiel 37 means is that GOD will seek out the Ten Lost Tribes ka the Israelites whom He allowed to be exiled out of NORTHERN ISRAEL and sent to the Caspian area in 718 BC.
From the Caspian they travelled north west to settle in the north Europe and Scandinavian countries with the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh travelling across into England where they became the Anglo-Saxons.
Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
This tells us that GOD knows where the descendants of the Ten Tribes are today.
Jeremiah has sevral prophecies about the Israelites ebing collected from thes isle north west of Israel itself.

Of course most peopel sneer at this just as they sneer at Creation, Flood, Resurrection...

[EYR]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #28]

144,000 JWs! What a joke!

The JWs have been brainwshed for 100 years to believe that 144,000 of them went to heaven when they died.
Nothing could be further from the truth!
No JW will survive Armageddon and all the dead ones raised on Judgment Day will get their second deaths for being pagans, liar, idolaters.

Careful reading of Revelation indicates the 144,000 who will be killed during the Tribulation.