Spiritual Israel, or 144,000 Jews?

[placebofactor]

My question is, “Who are the 144,000?
Following is Jehovah’s promise to his people, Israel:

Ezekiel 37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile nations) whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (May 14, 1948) I will make them (12 Tribes) one nation --- they all shall have one shepherd (Jesus), they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, -----I (the LORD) will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant --- And the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

A 7-year covenant of peace with Israel fulfills Daniel 9:27, Jesus is the covenant, and the messenger of the covenant.

Scriptures contain 29 lists of the 12 tribes of Israel in both the Old and New Testaments. Never are more than 12 tribes mentioned. When one tribe is left out, another is inserted, usually the tribe of Levi. From Levi came the priest.

Revelation 7 mentions 12 tribes numbering 144,000. Is there any justification for spiritualizing the number or the names of the tribes in these passages? Never in scripture are the 12 tribes represented as the church.
In Genesis 32:28, the Lord changes Jacob’s name to Israel. Jacob his earthly name, Israel his heavenly name. The 12 sons of Jacob were born of four mothers, Jacob being the common father. Leah and Rachel were Jacob’s wives, and Bilhah and Zilpah were his concubines.

In Exodus 28:21-29, 39:14, the 12 tribes were on the breastplate of the high priest, twelve precious stones arranged in four rows, each name engraved on a stone.

Raëlism, states that the chosen people, 144,000 will continue humanity in case of a disaster.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be spiritual Israel.
Mormons believe they are the 144,000

So, what is the truth?

[marke]

My question is, “Who are the 144,000?
Following is Jehovah’s promise to his people, Israel:

Ezekiel 37:21-28, "Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (Gentile nations) whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (May 14, 1948) I will make them (12 Tribes) one nation --- they all shall have one shepherd (Jesus), they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, -----I (the LORD) will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant --- And the nations shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

A 7-year covenant of peace with Israel fulfills Daniel 9:27, Jesus is the covenant, and the messenger of the covenant.

Scriptures contain 29 lists of the 12 tribes of Israel in both the Old and New Testaments. Never are more than 12 tribes mentioned. When one tribe is left out, another is inserted, usually the tribe of Levi. From Levi came the priest.

Revelation 7 mentions 12 tribes numbering 144,000. Is there any justification for spiritualizing the number or the names of the tribes in these passages? Never in scripture are the 12 tribes represented as the church.
In Genesis 32:28, the Lord changes Jacob’s name to Israel. Jacob his earthly name, Israel his heavenly name. The 12 sons of Jacob were born of four mothers, Jacob being the common father. Leah and Rachel were Jacob’s wives, and Bilhah and Zilpah were his concubines.

In Exodus 28:21-29, 39:14, the 12 tribes were on the breastplate of the high priest, twelve precious stones arranged in four rows, each name engraved on a stone.

Raëlism, states that the chosen people, 144,000 will continue humanity in case of a disaster.
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be spiritual Israel.
Mormons believe they are the 144,000

So, what is the truth?

Marke: When God destroyed the world by water in Noah's day, He spared only 8 souls, not because those were the only souls destined to go to heaven, but because 8 souls were all He chose to continue life from pre-flood to post-flood. Likewise, God will select and spare 144,000 Jews to live through the tribulation as the rest of the human world is destroyed.

[JehovahsWitness]

[God will select and spare 144,000 Jews to live through the tribulation as the rest of the human world is destroyed.

WRONG The 144,000 will be raised to heaven before the end of the tribulation and there will be millions perhaps billions of humans that will survive the tribulation to live on forever on this our planet earth.

[marke]

[God will select and spare 144,000 Jews to live through the tribulation as the rest of the human world is destroyed.

WRONG The 144,000 will be raised to heaven before the end of the tribulation and there will be millions perhaps billions of humans that will survive the tribulation to live on forever on this our planet earth.

Marke: I don't agree. God will destroy His enemies by fire in the Great Tribulation and He has said He will select 144,000 Jews to live throught the judgment just as He selected only a small number of Jews to survive the destroying angel's destruction spoken of in Ezekiel 9.

2 Peter 3
King James Version
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

[JehovahsWitness]

He will select 144,000 Jews to live throught the judgment

I don't agree.


JESUS &144,000 RULERS = GOD'S KINGDOM GOVERNMENT


DOES REVELATION 14:3 INDICATE THE 144,000 WILL RESIDE IN HEAVEN?

Yes. Note the following reasons ....

1. If they are not on earth (or in the physical realm/universe) they are in the spiritual realm. Biblically, there is nowhere else for them to be.

2. The scripture explains that the 144K says they stand with the lamb. If we take the lamb to refer to Jesus who was resurrected to be with "our Father who art in HEAVEN" ...then it is a given that the 144,000 are pictured where God and Jesus are... ie, in heaven.

3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion

HEBREWS 12:22 NIV

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

CONCLUSION : There is ample scriptural support to conclude that in symbolic language the 144,000 are indeed pictured in Revelation as being in HEAVEN.




RELATED POSTS


HOW are the 144,000 going to assist Jesus from heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1005585

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000

[placebofactor]

He will select 144,000 Jews to live throught the judgment

I don't agree.


JESUS &144,000 RULERS = GOD'S KINGDOM GOVERNMENT


DOES REVELATION 14:3 INDICATE THE 144,000 WILL RESIDE IN HEAVEN?

Yes. Note the following reasons ....

1. If they are not on earth (or in the physical realm/universe) they are in the spiritual realm. Biblically, there is nowhere else for them to be.

2. The scripture explains that the 144K says they stand with the lamb. If we take the lamb to refer to Jesus who was resurrected to be with "our Father who art in HEAVEN" ...then it is a given that the 144,000 are pictured where God and Jesus are... ie, in heaven.

3. The Apostle Paul explained the symbology of Mount Zion

HEBREWS 12:22 NIV

But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

CONCLUSION : There is ample scriptural support to conclude that in symbolic language the 144,000 are indeed pictured in Revelation as being in HEAVEN.




RELATED POSTS


HOW are the 144,000 going to assist Jesus from heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1005585

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000

Jehovah witness, I have a question for you: From the time the 144,000 Jews of the 12 tribes of Israel (that's what the Bible clearly states) are called together to be given the mark of the Father on their foreheads Revelation 7, until they are called in Revelation 14 to Mt. Zion by the Lord Jesus, how much time has passed? Continue reading before you answer.

I say they will be marked with the Father's name, and then called to meet Jesus on the mount of Sion before the "Time of Jacobs trouble begins, a period of 3 1/2 years. What will they be doing? Keep in mind, the chapters and verses have been put in by men, but the events run together from verse to verse.

The last verse in Chapter 13, "Here is wisdom, let him that has understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred and threescore and six." Here men are warned about the coming of the antichrist and the receiving of his mark. the next verse chapter 14, "And I looked, and, lo a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him a 144,000, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

It sounds as if the 144,000 are marked, then after receiving the mark, they go to meet the Lord on Mt. Zion in Israel. (My thoughts) There they will be told to finish "confirming the new covenant Jesus was to confirm for 7 years, but was cut off after 3 1/2 years, Daniel 9:27. They will go throughout the land of Israel and possibly from nation to nation confirming Jesus' new covenant to all people until the 3 1/2 years of tribulation are ended, and the seven years finished. It's then they go to be with the LORD in heaven. Before they return, for the next seven years the land of Israel will have to be cleansed of all the dead and all weapons (Ezekiel 39:9) before Jesus returns to establish his kingdom on earth for 1000 years.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #15]

I copied this from the Watchtowers Bible and Tract Society 1971 Edition of the Bible Aid.
That a day can be longer than twenty-four hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks, in part, of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. Ascribing not just twenty-four hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the geological evidence found in the earth itself."

It appears to me in the last sentence the teaching of evolution is more important than God's word. Also, my nephew called back and told me, "Yes, each day is 1000 years" agreeing with your Bible Aid.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah witness, I have a question for you: From the time the 144,000 Jews of the 12 tribes of Israel (that's what the Bible clearly states) are called together to be given the mark of the Father on their foreheads Revelation 7, until they are called in Revelation 14 to Mt. Zion by the Lord Jesus, how much time has passed? Continue reading before you answer.

I barely have the patience to read, let alone answer loaded questions.

The 144,000 are SPIRITUAL Jews of the 12 tribes of SPIRITUAL Israel. If you would like to rephrase your question including the specific terms provided ( "SPIRITUAL Jews" and "SPIRITUAL Israel ")

... I will certainly consider reading your question to the end.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #15]

I copied this from the Watchtowers Bible and Tract Society 1971 Edition of the Bible Aid.
That a day can be longer than twenty-four hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks, in part, of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. Ascribing not just twenty-four hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the geological evidence found in the earth itself."

It appears to me in the last sentence the teaching of evolution is more important than God's word. Also, my nephew called back and told me, "Yes, each day is 1000 years" agreeing with your Bible Aid.

With all due respect, the quotation you cited does not say "each day is 1000 years" . Both you and your nephew need to read the passage again. Carefully.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #15]

I copied this from the Watchtowers Bible and Tract Society 1971 Edition of the Bible Aid.
That a day can be longer than twenty-four hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks, in part, of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. Ascribing not just twenty-four hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the geological evidence found in the earth itself."

It appears to me in the last sentence the teaching of evolution is more important than God's word. Also, my nephew called back and told me, "Yes, each day is 1000 years" agreeing with your Bible Aid.

With all due respect, the quotation you cited does not say "each day is 1000 years" . Both you and your nephew need to read the passage again. Carefully.

My two nephews and my brother-in-law are elders in your organization. They have been Witnesses for 45 years, several years before my mother passed away, who was also a Witness. Because the article refers to 2 Peter 3:8, what else are we to think but each day is equivalent to 1000 years. If they disagree with that, then they should have never used 2 Peter as a reference point; don't you think?

Let me ask you, how many thousands of years do you believe are represented by one day?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #15]

I copied this from the Watchtowers Bible and Tract Society 1971 Edition of the Bible Aid.
That a day can be longer than twenty-four hours is indicated by Genesis 2:4, which speaks, in part, of "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." Also indicative of this is Peter's inspired observation that "one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8. Ascribing not just twenty-four hours but a longer period of time, thousands of years, to each of the creative days better harmonizes with the geological evidence found in the earth itself."

It appears to me in the last sentence the teaching of evolution is more important than God's word. Also, my nephew called back and told me, "Yes, each day is 1000 years" agreeing with your Bible Aid.

With all due respect, the quotation you cited does not say "each day is 1000 years" . Both you and your nephew need to read the passage again. Carefully.

My two nephews and my brother-in-law are elders in your organization. {snip : irrelevant}

I don't care, I can read. I read the quotation you posted, so I know what the quotation said, because I read it. And I can READ.