JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

HOW SHOULD HEBREWS 1v8 BE TRANSLATED ?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... sion=RSVCE

As can be seen above, the verses can be rendered "God is thy throne". The Greek for Hebrews 1:8 literally reads as follows

Toward [but] the SON the throne of you the GOD into the age of the age

Source: http://www.abarim-publications.com/Inte ... 63in-S-if0


A CHALLENGE TO TRANSLATE

According to expert Greek scholars, the original Greek construction of Heb. 1:8 is somewhat ambiguous and can legitimately be rendered in various ways.

• It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative ["your throne, O God"] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: God is thy throne" or "Thy throne is God" Either makes good sense." - Dr. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 339
  
  "Both translations ["Your throne is God" and "Your throne, O God"] are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate" - Dr. Jason Beduhn in his book Truth in Translation,

Although the Greek allows for various renditions, we have a clue as to the most likely understanding by looking at Psalm 45 verse 7.

PSALMS 45: A KEY TO UNDERSTANDING HEBREWS 1:8

• Hebrews 1:8 is a direct qoute from Psalm 45.
  
  • The Jerusalem Bible renders Psalm 45:6a as: "Your throne, God, shall last for ever and ever." which can be understood as meaning "Your throne (which is ) God, shall last for ever and ever" or "your throne, O god (see USCCB footnote below) , lasts forever"

  
  [*] The footnotes to the NAB were authorized by the American Council of Bishops
  https://bible.usccb.org/bible/psalms/45?7#23045007-1

  Code: Select all

  THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE  (2nd edition of this translation)
   
  Your throne [u]is from God[/u], for ever and ever - Psalms 45:7

So, Psalm 45 is speaking about the King (and by extension the promised Jewish Messiah) as a representative of the Almighty and we can hardly think the Hebrews understood the Messiah or the King to literally be Almighty God YHWH [

CONCLUSION The Hebrew and Greek of Hebrews 1:8 can indeed be rendered "thy throne is from God" or "Thy throne (God) lasts forever". Based on Psalms 45:7 it seems reasonable to conclude that either rendition, both of which are grammatically sound, reflects the writer's implied intention as being that the One spoken of is supported and appointed by God rather than is Almighty God himself.

JW




For further reading on the grammatical construction of Hebrews 1:8 see LINK below
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... eb-18.html

New Jerusalem Bible
https://www.catholic.org/bible/books_bible.php

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

Barne's do not {SNIP: don't care}

I dont see anythjng in your post that addresses the specific points made.

Your conclusion as "thy throne is from God" isn't that adding the original Greek writings?

That it is necessary to alter or to add anything to what is there said in explanation of the passage. As it clearly proves that Christ is Divine.

Yes he is divine but not God Almighty. "Divine" means "of, from, or like God or a god; more than humanly excellent, gifted, or beautiful." (Illustrated Oxford Dictionary, 1998)

And have you not gleaned yet from all of the discussion that Greek translation is different from English? We have to add certain words to round out the meaning. It's like if in the Greek it is said, "Rover is dog." It has no article, so we know that Rover is not the only dog. Now we have to make it understandable in English, so we say, "Rover is a dog." We are not adding to the meaning. We are simply following the rules of translation from Greek to English.

"In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns in the nominative form: 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x' is 'y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever.' The NRSV and the TEV translators also recognize this as a possible translation of this verse, and include it in a footnote in their respective translations." (Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, page 98.)

"Rover is a dog" or "Rover is the dog" adding anything to the originals leads to different understanding.
Why add? Even NRSV and TEV you have mentioned does not say "thy throne is from God".

Heb 1:8
8 But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.
NRSV

Heb 1:8
8 About the Son, however, God said:
"Your kingdom, O God, will last forever and ever!
You rule over your people with justice.
TEV

If Rover was THE dog, he would be one of a kind. The article in front of it tells us if that is the case. There is no Greek article there, so translators to English must follow the rules to translate Greek into English. We don't say "Rover is dog." We say "Rover is A dog." That is understood by a Greek reader.

I think that the TEV and the NRSV have the concession that "God is thy throne" in their margins. It is a viable translation. In fact, the James Moffatt Translation renders Hebrews 1:8 as:
"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever." The American Standard Version in a margin says: "Or, Thy throne is God." You see, there are versions that will say that "God is your throne" is a satisfactory translation.

Why come to man's words construction? The original Greek says, see the Greek "throne" comes first than the Greek word "God". It can never be "God is thy throne". So the rendering of KJV is correct and not the other translations.

I have shown you that "God is thy throne" is an acceptable version to other translations. Yes, "throne" comes first and may not be "God is thy throne." But it can be translated as "Thy throne is God." Wouldn't that be acceptable according to your reasoning that "throne" comes first?

[John17_3]

[Replying to Brucknerian in post #1776]

Jesus is God, the Son ... a representation of God the Father, in finite human form; but to understand this on the deepest level you'll have to partake in a reading of the following work that I've just posted for a topic of discussion elsewhere.

Can we not understand it from the Bible?
I have never read in the Bible that Jesus is God the son.
I have read that Jesus is

• the son of God - refered to by the wicked spirits - Matthew 8:29; mark 3:11; Luke 4:41; refered to by Mark - Mark 1:1; refered to by Luke - Luke 3:23, 38; refered to by John the Baptist - John 1:34; refered to by Nathaniel - John 1:49, 50; refered to by Jesus himself - John 5:24-30; refered to by Martha - John 11:27; refered to by the disciple John - John 20:31; 1 John 3:8; 1 john 5:5-20; Revelations 2:18; refered to by Paul the apostle - Acts 9:20; 2 Corinthians 1:19; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 4:12, 13; Hebrew 4:14; Hebrews 6:6;

• God's son :- refered to by the the followers of Christ - Matthew 14:33; refered to by Jesus - Matthew 27:43; john 10:36; refered to by the angel Gabriel - Luke 1:35; refered to by the apostle Paul - Romans 1:3, 4; 1 refered to by the disciple John - John 4:15

• son of the most high :- Angel Gabriel called Jesus "son of the most high" - Luke 1:32, as well the demons - Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28

Where have you read that Jesus is God, the Son?

The Bible does not give us the full answer to the God/Father relation, or the duality of the Godhead, but this doesn't mean that this mystery cannot be unravelled outside of the scriptures, through pure critical thinking, and philosophical reasoning.The Bible does not give us the full answer to the God/Father relation, or the duality of the Godhead, but this doesn't mean that this mystery cannot be unravelled outside of the scriptures, through pure critical thinking, and philosophical reasoning.

Why do you think the Bible does not give us the full answer to the God/Father relation?
Is the "duality of the Godhead" not a doctrine of men? Why does one need to understand "the duality of the Godhead" when it is not scripture?
How can one avoid false prophets if one accept every doctrine which men believe based on their ideas about scriptures?

What for instance, does Christ mean when in the very last chapter of the book of Revelation, he calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end?
Did Jesus call himself the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, in the book of Revelation?

Can you show me that please?
I will post the texts where the Alpha and Omega is referenced, along with my comments.

Reading from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Revelation 1
4 Yohannan to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from The One Who is, and was, and is coming, and from The Seven Spirits which are before his throne,
5 And from Yeshua The Messiah, the Trustworthy Witness, the Firstborn of the dead and The Ruler of the Kings of The Earth- him who loves us and has loosed us from our sins by his blood.
6 And he has made us The Priestly Kingdom to God and his Father; to him be glory and Empire to the eternity of eternities. Amen.
7 Behold, he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him, and all the families of The Earth shall mourn for him; yes and amen!
8 I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God, he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.

Comments :
John is speaking. John says God calls himself the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 21
5 And I walked and he who sat on the throne said to me, “Behold, I make all things new.” And he said to me, “Write: 'These words are trustworthy and true.”
6 And he said to me, “They are done. I am Alap and I am Tau, The Source and The Fulfillment. I shall give to the thirsty one from the fountain of the water of life without charge.”

Comments :
John is speaking. John says the one seated on the throne refers to himself as the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22
8 I am Yohannan, who saw and heard these things. And when I saw and heard, I fell to worship before the feet of the Angel who was showing me these things.
9 And he said to me: “Seer, no! I am your fellow Servant and of your brothers the Prophets and of those who observe these words of this book. Worship God!”
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.”
11 “And he who does evil, will do evil again; he who is foul, again will be polluted; the righteous again will do righteousness and the holy will again be hallowed.”
12 “Behold, I come at once, and my reward is with me, and I shall give to every person according to his work.”
13 “I am Alap and I am Tau, The First and The Last, The Origin and The Fulfillment.”
14 “Blessings to those who are doing his Commandments; their authority shall be over The Tree of Life, and they shall enter The City by the gates.”
15 “And outside are fornicators, murderers, idol worshipers, the defiled, sorcerers and all seers and workers of lies.”
16 I, Yeshua, have sent my Angel to testify these things among you before the assemblies. I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Root and The Offspring of David, and his Companion, and The Bright Morning Star.”

Comments :
John is speaking.
John quotes the angel that is speaking to him, in verse 10. The angel is quoted as saying, in verse 12, “Behold, I come at once, and my reward is with me, and I shall give to every person according to his work.” ...in verse 13 “I am Alap and I am Tau, The First and The Last, The Origin and The Fulfillment.” Then in verse 16, the angel quotes Jesus. "I, Yeshua, have sent my Angel to testify these things among you before the assemblies. I AM THE LIVING GOD, [This was inserted, and is not found in the Greek text] The Root and The Offspring of David, and his Companion, and The Bright Morning Star.”
The quote from the angel in verses 12, and 13, is not said to come from Jesus, and does not, since the only person who refers to himself as the Alpha and Omega, is the one seated on the throne - Jehovah God, the Almighty. See Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:5, 6

The following work will unravel this for you, but be prepared to start straining your mental capacity to the fullest (there's an abstract summary of the 'science' it puts forth that follows the Appendix and it helps readers, hopefully, to comprehend the conceptual system of understanding that the science advances):

https://philpapers.org/archive/LIIRTP-2.pdf

Should we understand the scriptures by means of this science, or the holy spirit?

[John17_3]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1777]

I was asking if you provide me with a reference for what you are saying.
If you do not have a reference, that is okay. What i saw from the Wikipedia article, reveals that you can be referring to usages that do not apply to the scriptures in Greek.
From Middle English O, o, from Old English o, from Latin o and Ancient Greek ὦ (ô, interjection).

Do you accept that?

[Difflugia]

Reading from the Aramaic Bible in Plain English

Just out of curiosity, why are you quoting from the Peshitta?

[Difflugia]

I was asking if you provide me with a reference for what you are saying.

You mean like justification that what I'm saying about Hellenistic Greek is true? From A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Blass, Debrunner, and Funk (usually abbreviated as BDF), §147:

Attic used the nominative (with article) with simple substantives only in addressing inferiors, who were, so to speak, thereby addressed in the 3rd person. The NT (in passages translated from a Semitic language) and the LXX do not conform to these limitations, but can even say ὁ θεός, ὁ πατήρ etc., in which the arthrous Semitic vocative is being reproduced by the Greek nominative with article.

Emphasis mine.

What i saw from the Wikipedia article, reveals that you can be referring to usages that do not apply to the scriptures in Greek.

All of the forms of vocative address that we discussed appear in the New Testament and I gave you examples.

[Difflugia]

The Anchor Yale Bible volume on Hebrews by Craig Koester references an article published in Tyndale Bulletin Vol. 36, "The Translation and Significance of ὁ θεος in Hebrews 1:8-9" by Murray J. Harris. It can be downloaded from Tyndale as a PDF.

[John17_3]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1784]

Just out of curiosity, why are you quoting from the Peshitta?

I do not often find a translation on github, that makes the distinction between the lord and the LORD.

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1785]

You mean like justification that what I'm saying about Hellenistic Greek is true? From A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Blass, Debrunner, and Funk (usually abbreviated as BDF), §147:

In Post #1761

Later, for reasons that still aren't fully clear to me, Hellenistic Greek started using definite articles in the same situations, mostly in cases where the vocative is indistinguishable from nominative. There are unambiguous examples in Matthew 11:26 (ναὶ ὁ πατήρ, "Yes, Father.") and Luke 8:54 (ἡ παῖς, ἔγειρε, "Child, arise.").

The Wikipedia article you linked deals with the letter O which it says is in Ancient Greek ὦ (ô, interjection). ô is not the same as ὁ.
The former is "O", which is used in Matthew 15:28, and the latter is "the", which is used in Hebrews 1:8.

So, you are referring to word usages that do not apply to the scriptures where ho, hé, to are used.
You will need to provide the reference that says ὁ was used to mean "Oh" or "O".

I do not see this in Matthew 11:26
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/11-26.htm
https://biblehub.com/matthew/11-26.htm
It still translates as "Yes, the father...".

An attempt to use "Oh", or "O" in these text would seem to be a mistake on the part of the translators.
A reference would be required to make it valid.

I hope this is much clearer for you to understand.
Otherwise, I am sorry i could not help.

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1786]

The Anchor Yale Bible volume on Hebrews by Craig Koester references an article published in Tyndale Bulletin Vol. 36, "The Translation and Significance of ὁ θεος in Hebrews 1:8-9" by Murray J. Harris. It can be downloaded from Tyndale as a PDF.

Thanks. Do you have an online link, rather than a download?
Isn't this a translation, though? How do you think it would make a difference to the translations found here, and what makes it more authoritative?

P.S.
In Hebrews 1:9, the rendering is not "O God", but "the God".
Also, Paul quotes from Psalm 45:6, 7, which reads, "God, your throne is".
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/45-6.htm

[Brucknerian]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1]

Taking particular versus out of context, that means lifting them from the Bible, as though they make complete sense on their own, is a serious mistake. A serious mistake because outside the Bible versus can be interpreted in a manner contrary to the Bible. That's what is taking place here. There is a line in Isaiah that reads "line upon line, here a little, there a little ..." referring to how the scriptures can be gathered together to make sense. That Jesus is God (representing God, the Father) is made clear within the context of the entire Bible with for instance, the opening of the gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God." John is speaking of Jesus. Paul makes it further clear in his letters that he who denies Christ is the anti-Christ---the denier of the one who represents God the Father in the person of Jesus and His Salvation that can be found in no other.

To pose questions regarding the particular versus that we're asked to take to account, with the insinuation or suggestion that Jesus is not God, one cannot help but bring oneself into serious conflict with such scriptures as the opening versus in the gospel according to John. Are we to therefore throw out John's gospel as spurious? Or, do as Jehovah's Witnesses do in their New version of the Bible, and twist the scripture to read: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was a god."?

As a side note. The "J" in Hebrew is not pronounced as we pronounce it in English, as ... Jay. The J in Hebrew has the sound of Y. My name is Reijo in Finnish. Finnish is a Nordic language bearing a similarity to Hebrew in the pronunciation of certain letters. The 'j' in my name is prnounced not as a J but as a Y ... thus, the 'jo' does not sound as in English as 'joe' but as in Finnish 'yo'. This gives occassion for some pronouncing Jesus as Yeshua, more in keeping with the Aramaic or old Hebrew, or any Nordic speaking peoples; and then in Spanish we have Hesus, yet another pronunciation. It's telling that Jehovah's Witnesses lend so much weight to the mere pronunciation of God's name, yet are mistaken with their pronunciation, and further are unable to come to the understanding that the God spoken of in the Old Testament is the same God spoken of in the New Testament--God in the person of Jesus--the same God who was known to Abraham. As Jesus states in his rebuke of the Sadducees who were bent on his destruction: "Before Abraham was, I am." The "I am" who also spoke to Moses. And the "I am" who states of himself in the last book of Revelation as "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Also, the one whom Timothy spoke to when he touched the wonds in his hands and in his side, and remarked: "My Lord ...."

What mere mortal man can say of himself "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #1786]

I have posted the scholarly views of Jason BeDuhn concerning Hebrews 1:8 and they make sense to me. I guess no one here has read my posts. If you want an understandable and concise viewpoint on Hebrews 1:8 here is what BeDuhn says:

"The problem in Hebrews 1:8 is that we are not sure where the verb 'is' belongs in the sentence, and where it belongs makes a big difference in the meaning of the verse. [You can see that the word-for-word Greek comes out as ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aiona, and in English "the throne of you the god until the age of age."] That is the interlinear translation. In Hebrews 1:8, we have two nouns in the nominative form 'throne' and 'God.' The verb 'is' might go between these two nouns as it does in dozens of cases of saying 'x' is 'y' in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever. ...Most of the the versions we are comparing have chosen the rarer, less probable way to translate ho theos. By taking it to mean 'O God,' and by putting 'is' AFTER the two nouns ('throne' and 'God') and before the prepositional phrase 'forever and ever,' they read the verse as 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.' The KJV, NASB, NIV, NAB, AB and LB choose to translate this way, and do not alert their readers to the uncertainties of the passage....In my opinion, the NRSV, TEV and NWT have done the right thing by informing their readers that there are two ways the verse can and has been translated.

"Both translations are possible, so none of the translations we are comparing can be rejected as inaccurate [including the NWT]. We cannot settle the debate with certainty. But which is more probable? First, on the basis of linguistics, ho theos is more likely to mean 'God,' as it does hundreds of times throughout the New Testament, than 'O God,' a meaning it has in only three other places in the New Testament....Moreover, there is no other way to say 'God is your throne' than the way Hebrews 1:8 reads....Second, on the basis of literary context, we can say that Jesus, who is the subject being discussed in Hebrews 1:8, is not called 'God' anywhere else in the Epistle to the Hebrews.

"There is another literary text to help us, namely the original psalm that is being quoted in Hebrews 1:8. Psalm 45 is a hymn in praise of the king of Israel. God is addressed nowhere in this psalm. Instead, we get a lengthy description of the king's ideal life....So what does it have to do with Jesus? It's really quite simple: Jesus is the Messiah. The Messiah is the rightful King of Israel. What is said about the king of Israel can be said equally of the Messiah....[and] the psalm is about what God has done for the person spoken to. Within the Jewish tradition, Psalm 45 has never been taken to c all the king 'God.' The modern translation published by the Jewish Bible Society reads, 'Your divine throne is everlasting.'

[continued]

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1789]

[continued]

"The Greek translation of Psalm 45 made before the beginning of Christianity, which reads exactly as the author of Hebrews has quoted it, certainly followed this traditional Jewish understanding of the verse, and its translators thought that by using ho theos they were saying 'God is your throne,' not 'Your throne, O God.' So we must conclude that the more probable translation is 'God is your throne...,' the translation found in the NWT and in the footnotes of the NRSV and TEV. Three giants of modern New Testament scholarship---Westcott, Moffatt, and Goodspeed---came to the same conclusion independently.

"The fact is, if this verse were quoted in the New Testament in reference to anyone else, the translators would have not hesitated to translate it as 'God is your throne...' It seems likely that it is only because most translations were made by people who already believe that Jesus is God that the less probable way of translating this verse has been preferred. "


(Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, pp. 97-101, 2003, University Press of America)