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Replying to otseng in post #4135]
Fundamentally, I'm not interested in just voices, but all of the physical world. There's a differences between voices in our mind and the claim of a world existing in a mind. You can't claim just because we hear voices in our mind therefore all of the universe exists within God's mind.
The fundamental in this argument is The Creator Mind and biblically speaking said Mind is big on voices and on humans hearing and listening to the voices - in the case of the Bible God - specifically listening to His Voice.
You claim the entire universe is inside the mind of God.
It's more of an observation of likeliness.
IF
We exist with a created thing
THEN
Which is more likely?
1. The created thing exists within The Creator Mind.
2. The created thing exists without The Creator Mind.
Indeed, anything a theist claims as real (heavens, hells et al) also exist within The Creator Mind, so it is not just this universe - but every any and all universes which can be mindfully experienced. All exist within The Creator Mind (and are real for that).
How can voices in the mind of God correlate with the existence of the universe?
How is this achieved, Biblically speaking?
In this perspective, the "voices in the mind of God" could be understood as the underlying laws, principles, or thoughts that govern the universe. From this viewpoint, the universe's existence and its order are manifestations of the divine intellect or will "heard" by the minds receiving said information.
Are you wanting a scientific explanation as to "how"?
Apart from explaining theistic beliefs that The Creator Voice can be heard (through the created) the "correlation between the universe and the voices in the mind of God" is primarily a matter of philosophical or theological interpretation rather than a scientific "how?" explanation.
Going along with that concept, The Creator Mind creating a computer inside The Creator Mind seems to be as redundant as creating the universe outside of Itself.
No, creating a universe that is actually real is not redundant.
IF
The Creator Mind is all powerful and all present and omni-veritable
THEN
Explain why you believe that anything created within The Creator Mind, has to be seen as false/illusion/fake, rather than true/real/genuine.
I would argue anything else is redundant because it would be a simulation based on an actual universe,
Then support that argument. Explain how one can believe that a God can create this awesomely complex universe outside of His own existence (self) and believe such thinking preposterous and redundant when said universe is understood to being within His mind.
...whether it be a computer simulation or God's mind.
Reducing the thoughts of God to being nothing more than simulations, comes with it own set of problems.
Even giving the concept some due, one then has to answer "why" would The Creator Mind deem it necessary to create a computer in It's House, that would run simulations of rooms that minds could experience, rather than simply placing minds in actual rooms for experience?
I don't believe in either, so it's a meaningless question for me.
It is not a case of whether one believes in it or not. It is a case that you brought it into your argument in an attempt to show that (3) and (2) are similar (as (1) and (2) are).
Now when push comes to shove, you want to backpedal from a statement you yourself made as argument for your observation (2) and (3) share a similarity?
Okay then. I can therefore ascertain from your reply that you cannot support your claim that (2) and (3) are similar.
You would now have to explain where the minds - which can experience said computer simulations - come from, in relation to said computer mind.
Ultimately, the mind in a computer simulation is the CPU. So the mind inside a simulation would be the CPU (or even a simulated CPU).
So your explanation is that this computer in The Creator Mind which was built to simulation The Creator Mind, also simulates the minds which respond to it.
This would signify that The Creator Mind is using the computer simulator device It created in Its Mind - to act as a type of scientific instrument in order to observe the reactions and interactions between the computer mind (simulating The Creator Mind), and the simulated minds the computer mind created within itself (re the simulation).
Q: What are these minds within the simulation, simulating?
(This is asked because your scenario has it that the computer is (by design) simulating The Creator Mind, so any minds simulated within that would also have to be simulating minds outside of the computer in order for those minds to be said to being simulating "something/anything".)
Hang on there...why would The Creator Mind create a computer within Itself and make it so that The minds in (B) cannot interact with The Creator Mind (or minds within Creator Mind who are not within the computer simulation?
I'm just giving hypothetical scenarios, not claiming I believe in any of them.
That is beside the point. You are attempting to show through your hypothetical scenarios that (2) and (3) are similar.
I think of your "Creator outside of creation" perspective as a hypothetical scenario and that did not prevent me from showing that (1) and (2) are similar for that. I also think (2) is a hypothetical scenario.
The point is there are a variety of possible worlds based on the basic three proposals.
Name some of these varieties of possible worlds so as to explain the point. Which varieties are there re (1) and (2) and (3) and how are these relevant to any "point" being made?
The energy is the thought in action within The Creator Mind (TCM). The energy is physical and so too is the one who thought it and this is how mindfulness interacts with itself to produce objects which can then be experienced intimately - eventually - on all levels.
Within the realm of the Creator Mind (TCM), the energy released from the initial thought manifests as physical reality.
Yes, I agree God created physical reality.
Which is not what I am arguing above. The Creator Mind IS physical and real. The Creator Mind did not create Itself. The argument your present re the computer only suggests TCM created a simulation of Itself. I am asking why you think (what reational you are using) that such is a viable thing to consider as possibly true.
But physical reality doesn't correlate with something that is inside a mind.
Perhaps not in relation to how some personalities use mindfulness, but this in itself does not prove your words are true. We are - after all - speaking about a Mind which is omni-omni.
To argue then, that even inside such a mind, physical reality cannot exist, is simply lacking comprehension re the abilities of an omni-omni entity (re 3) and consequently deferring to the problematic idea that we "therefore must exist outside of said Mind" (The Creator Mind) (1) which has been shown to share similarities with (2).
TCM achieves this engagement with the objects by being the "minds" within said objects, which eventually leads us to Earth and our human experience.
In actual universe theory (AUT), God can interact with anything in the universe the same as TCM.
Indeed. This is where (1) and (3) share a similar idea.
This also answers your earlier question (How can voices in the mind of God correlate with the existence of the universe?) and makes one wonder as to why the question was asked.
The same applies to (1) in that regard. Are we to drop conversation because "circular logic" and thus surrender to atheism?
Nothing is surrendering to atheism, just that using circular logic is fallacious.
It is a good thing then, that I - like you - am not using such in my arguments.
Even so, I am simply agreeing with the assessment that The Creator Mind cannot act with deception, based on those same findings and more which align with said findings, so am taking the example of the Bible God as being an accurate ambassador/image for The Creator Mind we exist within.
But is the world actually real and not just something in a mind?
At this point, the question asked by you also requires being answered by you.
Do you seriously believe that anything within The Mind of an omni-omni entity, must be seen as "fake/false/untrue/illusion et al" or are you willing to think that it is possible such belief is misinformed/based on misinformation/incorrectly perceived?
I have no idea what you mean by "everything that exists is real" in 3. I can agree it would be perceptually real, but I would disagree it's actually real.
Is this because, as powerful as your Bible God is, (omnipotent creator) you do not regard His imagination (mindfulness) can create actual real things?
Yes, I believe God can create actual real things. Since we are limited by anthropomorphic language and have no language to actually describe things outside of our universe, we have to describe ultimate reality based on our understanding of our world.
Yet you also appear to think your Gods Mind (like you think human minds) can create illusions, (non-real things), which in itself argues against your belief that God is unable to deceive. For your view carries with it, that anything within (your idea/perception of) God's Mind, can only be thought of as non-real.
When we create actual things, they do not exist within our mind, but outside of our mind.
Not how (3) has it. When humans create actual things, they are doing so within The Creator Mind. That is where they get the stuff to create with, from.
Where they get their ideas is also (ultimately/fundamentally) from the same source.
In the same way, The Creator Mind imagines/has ideas and these ideas manifest as real objects with The Creator Mind (which itself is a real object).
Thinking/believing that mindfulness is not actually real (is immaterial) is fundamentally flawed in relation to this discussion re (2).
So, I'm using the same analogy with God. God created actual things that exist outside of his mind.
Which aligns with (2) in that belief in a God outside of this universe who created this universe is the same as (2) ( some mind outside the simulation created the simulation) and the claim that such belief is "Actually Real" is based upon a possible deception due to the variables.
Kinda like that computer concept you offered, where The Creator Mind (The Real) created a computer to simulate Its Mind ("model the mind of omnipotent creator") for whatever minds inside the computer to experience...in this case the God of (1) is the computer mind of (3)...
Then it boils down to a simulation, not creating actual real physical things.
If it were shown to be a valid argument (that The Creator Mind created a computer within Its Mind) yes it would be reduced to that. The computer in this scenario would have to have somehow figured out how to breach its programing and no longer simulate The Creator Mind by telling the minds (which are part of its overall running system), that they exist in a "real" universe outside of the computer simulation.
Not only would this computer mind have to
1. be enabled by The Creator Mind to do this, but
2. It would also have to essentially deceive itself in relation to what it is deceptively telling its minds within itself, to believe.
If we are to consider your scenario as possible, you will have to explain why The Creator Mind created this computer (within) to be enabled have a mind of its own.
One could argue that in order for the computer simulating The Creator Mind to do so genuinely, The Creator Mind would have to build into it coding for the allowance of that simulated computer mind program to exhibit the same freedom to be willful.
However, this presents a problem if said computer mind chooses to be deceptive in relation to the minds it creates from itself to experience its simulations, because it was created to simulate The Creator Mind, and
IF
TCM is not deceptive,
THEN
The simulated mind of The Creator Mind that is the computer cannot be deceptive either.
Therefore, this is another point against your claim that (2) and (3) are similar re your argument that TCM could have created a computer within Itself which would simulate TCM and
also (through that) create a non-real universe
and minds inside said fake universe which would believe this non-real universe as actually real/true.
This in itself also adds support for the notion that we
do not exist in a universe outside of TCM, because as your scenario shows, such would be deception.
You ignored my reply regarding what it means to be Married to God (re Jewish Mysticism) and marched on obliviously.
I'll let readers assess which interpretation makes more sense.
Sure! Why not? The less one gives to the readers to assess with, the less the readers can assess.
Your current interpretation lacks intimacy and understanding as to the proposal and the significance Jewish Mysticism places on the ideas woven into the marriage mythology.
Your apparent unwillingness to engage more deeply about this aspect of relationship between TCM and human mindfulness, may signify an inability to comprehend the significance of understanding how a human mind can become ONE with TCM (through realisation that everything - including human mindfulness) exists within TCM
Even so, as you say - The Reader Minds can assess which interpretation makes more sense to them and the more information they are exposed to, the better they are enabled to follow the path of least resistance.
The takeaway from this is that
IF
We do not exist within a simulation.
THEN
We minds (The Bride) do not exist within a thing created outside of our Husbands Mindfulness.
Therefore, we exist (as one) within TCM and there is no "outside" of TCM which is actually real.