Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[Mae von H]

God wants to save those with right understanding, not because of anything they do, but because of what they are.

In this instance, the 'right understanding' is faith is Jesus! ...

No, right understanding, righteousness, is what makes person to be for example faithful.

I agree. People can have faith in Jesus doing something he never promised to do. Right understanding is critical.

Thats great. But you are fighting a completely different fight than 1213. Which becomes, so ironically, the point of this thread... To demonstrate that all well-meaning believers receive conflicting interpretations, while trying their earnest to make sense of what the Bible states about salvation.

Were you planning on answering post 770?

If you want to demonstrate that people having different views on matters, you needn’t have started this post. Doctors trained at the same institution nevertheless have differing views on very important health matters. Ask 2O professionals on how to answer a complex problem and you’ll get more than one answer. Why do you think Christians are so different that you need to demonstrate they have differing views? The only groups who have all the same view are brained washed cults or dictatorship countries.

[Mae von H]

It seems to me that you don't understand my point. There is nothing that prevents me other than myself, that is why it can't be said i couldn't do it. I just don't do it, because I don't want to do so, it is against my will.

To say you can make yourself believe in Santa Claus is a flat out lie. You cannot unless you really believe. The only way you can 'make' yourself believe, is if you are truly convinced. So sure, you can <tell> me you believe, but you do not really believe a Santa Claus exists.

It is said: "justifies those who have faith in Jesus". Justifies means, person is counted righteous.

Yes, 'righteousness' through faith. Answer B).

Which means, those who have faith in Jesus are counted righteous. It does not mean that the faith makes person righteous. The faith is only a result of that person is righteous. That person has faith, is a sign of that person is righteous. Therefore one can be counted righteous, justified, if he has faith.

Negative. Your works fall short. Jesus's don't fall short. Jesus becomes your proxy, through your faith in him. Read Romans 3 again, until you get it. (i.e.):

22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

When the man who wrote that was facing the end of his life, he said that he had, “completed the course.” He knew his works didn’t fall short. Jesus talks plainly about those who will hear, “well done,” regarding their works.

Scratching my proverbial head here... In post 694, here is our exchange:

POI So, belief in a risen Jesus is not required after all?

MAE Do you live up to all that you require morally and ethically of others? That is every day of your life? Can this be said of you?

******************

I essentially asked if answer B) is, or is not, a requirement. Your answer above suggests it is not, provided you can do this or that? But now, in Romans 3, it does look to be a criterion. Which means you should have answered with "(yes), belief IS required." So, which path do you wish to proceed? Please pick a lane.

No one obeys God’s laws without believing. Those who say they believe but refuse to obey God are fooling themselves. True faith cannot be separated from obeying. It’s like the man who decides to separate doing things to help his wife from loving her. You are asking, does a man need to love his wife OR help her?

[Mae von H]

Yes. This is the point of the the whole debate. Essentially, it all looks asit would if there was no god there and it was all either natural or man - made.

Morals, Holy books, fairy tales. Man made.

Things, critters, events, natural.

Different interpretations of religions, never mind different religions, human fairy -tales.

Common agreement on what things are and came to be, Fact, so far as we can tell. One science, many religions.

And many sects of religions, and different personal beliefs within religions. And ifonly one is getting true Inspiration and the others are all mistaken, why can't they all be? Just as if all religions but one are wrong, why not all?

Because the Bible is more reliable than the others. That was always the case, and is the debate. Poking holes in evolution was never the case. That is fallacious Theist thinking, supposing that if one can debunk science, it leaves 'God' as the default. It does not, nevermind 'which god'. Faithbased thinking invalidates Theist apologetics from the start.

As to Bible apologetics, they are always evasive in the end, and often try to muddy the waters and smokescreen by saying we can't know what was meant which means that the gospels can't be trusted, anyway. The apologetic is the flawed thinking of destroy knowledge and it leaves God. But it destroys the case for the Bible, Christianity and God, too.

Faith is behind the dismissal we so often get. Dismissal of evidence,logic and even what the Bible says.

The infamous example ofOne of our Posting pals posting the resurrection text with contradictions left out (so he knew what they were) should have utterly discredited him but he is still here, dismissing everything but his own opinions as though he was a sage or prophet.

But that is just a particularly Good bad example of the dismissal, deceit and evasion that is stock in trade of theist apologetics, never mind abusing and insulting posts accusing atheists of being rude and insulting, when it is the reasoning methods being attacked, not the persons.

I don't know whether the Bible apologists are delicate snowflakes or whether the indignation is just a ploy to try to intimidate the other side. But it won't work, anyway.

So because doctors/lawyers/engineers/scientists disagree on a point of importance to all of them, the matter they are debating doesn’t exist? If 10 doctors disagree on the reason for particular symptoms, the reasons don’t exist. Hmmmm

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes. This is the point of the the whole debate. Essentially, it all looks asit would if there was no god there and it was all either natural or man - made.

Morals, Holy books, fairy tales. Man made.

Things, critters, events, natural.

Different interpretations of religions, never mind different religions, human fairy -tales.

Common agreement on what things are and came to be, Fact, so far as we can tell. One science, many religions.

And many sects of religions, and different personal beliefs within religions. And ifonly one is getting true Inspiration and the others are all mistaken, why can't they all be? Just as if all religions but one are wrong, why not all?

Because the Bible is more reliable than the others. That was always the case, and is the debate. Poking holes in evolution was never the case. That is fallacious Theist thinking, supposing that if one can debunk science, it leaves 'God' as the default. It does not, nevermind 'which god'. Faithbased thinking invalidates Theist apologetics from the start.

As to Bible apologetics, they are always evasive in the end, and often try to muddy the waters and smokescreen by saying we can't know what was meant which means that the gospels can't be trusted, anyway. The apologetic is the flawed thinking of destroy knowledge and it leaves God. But it destroys the case for the Bible, Christianity and God, too.

Faith is behind the dismissal we so often get. Dismissal of evidence,logic and even what the Bible says.

The infamous example ofOne of our Posting pals posting the resurrection text with contradictions left out (so he knew what they were) should have utterly discredited him but he is still here, dismissing everything but his own opinions as though he was a sage or prophet.

But that is just a particularly Good bad example of the dismissal, deceit and evasion that is stock in trade of theist apologetics, never mind abusing and insulting posts accusing atheists of being rude and insulting, when it is the reasoning methods being attacked, not the persons.

I don't know whether the Bible apologists are delicate snowflakes or whether the indignation is just a ploy to try to intimidate the other side. But it won't work, anyway.

So because doctors/lawyers/engineers/scientists disagree on a point of importance to all of them, the matter they are debating doesn’t exist? If 10 doctors disagree on the reason for particular symptoms, the reasons don’t exist. Hmmmm

It does, Mae, meet the Material default. Material default, meet our pal Mae Engineers may differ about the best engine to make. That is how they compete for sales. But the facts of the car, or jet engine is Fact.

Doctors may disagree about a diagnosis or method of treatment, but the science of medicine is real and agreed all over, except by some Maga cult members it seems. The basics of astronomy are accepted as fact, even though we may have to rethink the age of the universe.

History is of course most discussed of all the Sciences because the data (evidence) is often arguable. Yet we have a global history and it did not start 8 thousand years ago.

Religion is not basically agreed all over as there are many religions, many gods and many Holy Books. There is only one science, and rethinking is part of the process and makes it stronger; Dogmatism and refusal to re -appraise is the flaw of religion and makes it weaker in the end.

[POI]

If you want to demonstrate that people having different views on matters, you needn’t have started this post. Doctors trained at the same institution nevertheless have differing views on very important health matters. Ask 2O professionals on how to answer a complex problem and you’ll get more than one answer. Why do you think Christians are so different that you need to demonstrate they have differing views? The only groups who have all the same view are brained washed cults or dictatorship countries.

I see and acknowledge what you are saying. You are right that differing views will prevail in many cases. However, you are comparing apples to oranges. Why? You are comparing humans with a God. Unless, you wish to merely reduce God's capabilities to the likes of fallible human capabilities? I would imagine you think it is God Himself who is actually conveying the path to salvation in the Bible, and not just humans alone, right? By assuming yes here, are you then suggesting God can do no better than mere humans in conveying such a message?

In the context of this topic, I'm asking a very specific question. What IS the path to salvation? We know the Bible is clear about murder, theft, and trespassing. He states it is a sin. There is no wiggle room here. Ask 100 Christians, and you will get 100 of the same answers, regardless. 100 will state God does not approve. Hence, God seems to be as clear as crystal where He wants to be, and as clear as mud in other arenas.

[POI]

No one obeys God’s laws without believing.

This would mean that atheists think it is okay to murder, steal, and rape. But they don't, while also genuinely thinking there exists no such thing as a God or gods.

[Mae von H]

No one obeys God’s laws without believing.

This would mean that atheists think it is okay to murder, steal, and rape. But they don't, while also genuinely thinking there exists no such thing as a God or gods.

Nope. You set the bar for obeying God way too low like not committing a heinous crime is obeying God. Not doing evil is not a positive act. It’s a lack of acting. God requires a much much higher standard. So you are in error.

[Mae von H]

If you want to demonstrate that people having different views on matters, you needn’t have started this post. Doctors trained at the same institution nevertheless have differing views on very important health matters. Ask 2O professionals on how to answer a complex problem and you’ll get more than one answer. Why do you think Christians are so different that you need to demonstrate they have differing views? The only groups who have all the same view are brained washed cults or dictatorship countries.

I see and acknowledge what you are saying. You are right that differing views will prevail in many cases. However, you are comparing apples to oranges. Why? You are comparing humans with a God.

I’m not. You are. Because the subject is God, you assume apples are now oranges, that is, because the subject is divine, man’s thinking of said subject ought to be different than all other mental gymnastics. Do you see what I mean. Mental processes don’t change because the subject is God.

Unless, you wish to merely reduce God's capabilities to the likes of fallible human capabilities?

You might be surprised to learn the Bible encourages man to understand God. It’s no compliment to assume couldn’t make a man who could understand Him.

I would imagine you think it is God Himself who is actually conveying the path to salvation in the Bible, and not just humans alone, right?

If that were the case, no apologetics would be needed. Preaching the Gospel wouldn’t be needed either. So no, that’s not the way.

By assuming yes here, are you then suggesting God can do no better than mere humans in conveying such a message?

Is it a contest?

In the context of this topic, I'm asking a very specific question. What IS the path to salvation? We know the Bible is clear about murder, theft, and trespassing. He states it is a sin. There is no wiggle room here. Ask 100 Christians, and you will get 100 of the same answers, regardless. 100 will state God does not approve. Hence, God seems to be as clear as crystal where He wants to be, and as clear as mud in other arenas.

When Jesus was asked this question, he, himself, gave DIFFERENT answers to different people. What you are trying to
do is make a procedure out of what has to be a relationship. It’s like, “what is the procedure for falling in love?” This is a category difference.

Jesus promised he will have to say to many, “go away, we never knew each other.” (Literally, “I never knew you.” )

If we consider Jesus has INDIVIDUAL answers to individuals, it’s no wonder He’s asked different followers to tread different paths from each other in following Him. Cults insist there’s no individuality. Christ insists upon relationship which requires individuals.

[POI]

No one obeys God’s laws without believing.

This would mean that atheists think it is okay to murder, steal, and rape. But they don't, while also genuinely thinking there exists no such thing as a God or gods.

Nope. You set the bar for obeying God way too low like not committing a heinous crime is obeying God. Not doing evil is not a positive act. It’s a lack of acting. God requires a much much higher standard. So you are in error.

I'm afraid it is you who are actually in error. I genuinely think that when you die, that's it. This makes me, for all intents and purposes, an atheist. And yet, I opt to treat others like I would want to be treated. The 'God' you worship's "higher standard" includes the golden rule, does it not? I also opt not to cheat on my spouse, trespass, etc etc etc... I reckon the God you worship does not like any of these things I mentioned. But they are not considered 'sin' because some invisible agency states so, but instead because this is just common sense. The point being, yes, you can obey 'the law' without believing. It's also true that the ones who do believe break 'the law' just as much, or more, than the ones who don't. And wouldn't you know it... Doesn't your believed book state that all fall short anyways?

[POI]

I'm going to focus my efforts here....

When Jesus was asked this question, he, himself, gave DIFFERENT answers to different people.

So, the answer could be (all of the above)?

What you are trying to do is make a procedure out of what has to be a relationship. It’s like, “what is the procedure for falling in love?” This is a category difference.

No. I'm asking how one gets into Heaven? It would be like asking how one gets into "the club"? Is the standard different for differing people?

Jesus promised he will have to say to many, “go away, we never knew each other.” (Literally, “I never knew you.” )

Is, or is NOT, answer B) a requirement then?

If we consider Jesus has INDIVIDUAL answers to individuals, it’s no wonder He’s asked different followers to tread different paths from each other in following Him. Cults insist there’s no individuality. Christ insists upon relationship which requires individuals.

?????????????????????????????????

Answer key:

A) Unconditional grace - (Jesus already did all the dirty work, everyone goes now since he had to die for all, as all fall short)
B) Faith/belief - (accept him as your savior, ask him for guidance, apply trust in him)
C) Works - (necessary additional acts or tasks in which Jesus also deems 'good')
D) Both B) and C)
E) No one goes, no one is worthy
F) Other, which does not already include the topics of B) and/or C)

********************

Provided Christian answers, thus far:

Post 11: JW No answer
Post 27: Eloi No answer
Post 49: Bjs1 answer B)
Post 76: Tam answer D)
Post 236: kjw47 answer D)
Post 239: DJT_47 answer D)
Post 321: AFG answer D)
Post 758: Mea Von H answer A) or E)?
post 805: 1213 answer A)
Post 812: Capbook answer B)