[
Replying to otseng in post #4070]
I avoid referring to such things as “just a simulation” (as you chose to word it) et al .
It's not just me calling it a simulation.
Not what I was commenting on. The words which I commented on were "I've never heard of any Christian hold the position reality is
just a simulation inside the mind of God." as it demotes/demeans in the similar manner as using the word "merely".
This is what was stated in the original article that started the entire discussion on philosophy:
"More recently, the question has been reframed as the "brain in a vat" problem, or the Simulation Argument. And it could very well be that we're the products of an elaborate simulation."
An "elaborate simulation" is a better wording of the concept, but that particular theory still leaves out the idea that we exist within The Creator Mind. It still has an assumed creator/creators outside of that which it/they created (some type of machinery - often a "computer" enabling the simulation) and therefore following the same train of thought as theists who believe that the universe is real and its creator is outside of it.
Simulation Theory is not what I am arguing.
Certainly there are Jews that understand this. Here is one such example.
Image
What does he specifically claim in the video?
Many things which nominal Christians/the Christianities generally resist giving thought to.
It isn't so much whether the Jews and their Zohar and Kabbalah specifically state we exist within the The Creator Mind, but that given what they understand of the mysticism, that such a conclusion/revelation would be unsurprising and not resisted/cause resistance/undermine Zohar and Kabbalah.
Why do you think Jesus is said to have said that the kingdom of God is within? If Jesus thought God existed outside the universe, why tell us to go within?
What does this have to do with either the universe is real or simulated?
It has to do with where to seek and find the creator of every reality experience.
Sure, the kingdom of God is not a natural kingdom, but a spiritual kingdom...
Not what Jesus claimed. No mystic would claim that spirit is unnatural. Perhaps you were not meaning that? If so, perhaps you might like to re-phrase the statement.
...But this would be true whether the universe is real or simulated.
It is not true and it is also not true to state that the universe being within The Creator Mind would make the universe unreal/not real.
Anyone can make up any alternative explanation, but that doesn't mean all explanations are equally plausible. What matters is the evidence and reasoning to support the claims. From a Biblical perspective,
And I have shown that all such passages are open to interpretation based upon ones personal preferences re belief, and that the Christianities reflect this in their inability to agree with which interpretation is the correct one to assume.
I've given passages to support things are created.
I gave the same passages to support that we exist within The Creator Mind.
From a theological perspective, I've presented the Flight simulator argument.
You are confusing what I am arguing with what Simulation Theory argues.
I am partly responsible for the confusion in using the word "Simulation" but until a better word can be produced, simulation is the best to use in the interim.
Nevertheless, a sharpened perspective would understand this is the case, and understand that The Creator Mind is "simulating" the rooms/mansions/places which can be experienced within The Creator Mind/House.
Thus, when one speaks of all mindfulness, one speaks of that which is The Real, whereas when one speaks of creations, one is speaking of those created things which can thus be experienced by The Real (because they are experienced mindfully).
It is not that The Creator Mind looked at something real that it created outside of itself and decided to simulate that real thing within itself.
Rather is it that the only "thing" which can ever be truly
The Real is The Creator Mind alone.
The Real alone is equal to The Creator Mind occupying no FORM.
In order to create form to occupy, The Creator Mind must simulate (ie "create") said forms and this involves The Creator Mind
thinking about what The Creator Mind wishes to experience/occupy, and then simulating said form in order to experience said form as real. Not as
The Real.
The universe is one of the "mansions" within The Father's House. (John 14:2 KJV) While they exist they can (obviously) be experienced as real.
Here's the passage:
[Jhn 14:2 KJV] 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/14/2
Highly doubtful the context is referring to saying there are many universes.
Why is it so that you have these high-end doubts that this must be what Jesus was referring to?
A "universe" is simply a "Room" in the "House" of The Creator Mind. It can be any "size" (greater or lesser) than this current one we are sharing the experience of.
While we obviously share the same universe, we interpret the experience differently depending upon our perspectives, and our perspectives depend upon what we choose to accept or not accept.
If you were to examine truthfully
why you are "Highly Doubtful" about this, you might source the doubt as being in your belief that The Creator Mind exists outside of the creations said Mind creates within said Mind.
While they exist they can (obviously) be experienced as real.
I think, at a minimum, we can all agree the universe is perceived to be real.
Where we are not agreeing is that it is mindfulness
alone which determines what can be experienced as real. It is the mind alone which perceives things (forms) to be real.
In the case of human mindfulness, we are temporarily involved with this particular room in The Father House.
Further to that notion, Jesus also presents a clue (re Zohar and Kabbalah/the expressions of mysticism) in his expression which requires an understanding as to why such type wording is always used. "To prepare a place for you" allows the mystery to be uncovered in the manner/along the lines of "this is how The Creator Mind does things".
Aligned with that truth we can thus ponder on the idea that this current "room" we are sharing the real experience of, was itself "prepared" for us by The Creator Mind.
Not only that, but biblically those dots line up, supporting the idea that everything which can be experienced (mindfully of course) as real, exists within The Creator Mind.
The perception (leading to misconception) is that the universe is outside of the creator mind and that this somehow makes the universe "real" whereas if it were inside the creator mind is somehow "cannot be real", is the misconception.
The difference is between "perceptually real" and "actually real". We agree the universe is perceptually real. So the question is - is the universe actually real?
Based upon what I have presented as argument, the question you are asking is here nor there (a question which can be waved away) since all we
actually are really required to agree with, is that The Creator Mind is The Real/The Actual Real. This in itself then leads to the realisation that form is "perceptually real" and is that which is created (simulated) to be mindfully experienced and that which is created, thus exists
only in The Creator Mind.
I have done (and will continue to do) plenty of study.
How have you studied to arrive at your conclusion we are in God's mind?
I have provided reams of data (posts and threads) over many years, here on this message board in many of its forums which bear witness to my claim of having done (and furthermore am still in the process of doing) Plenty of Study.
I see (also - by your turnaround) that you have not studied such (as a Christian) because the Christianities specifically teach that the creator mind is outside this universe.
So, I'm asking you for the evidence and arguments to support your position.
And I am pointing out that I have and will continue to provide such evidence. Furthermore I am asking you to study that evidence that you may eventually (potentially) accept it as Truth.
Any sureness about such a perception is without/has no foundation in the truth.
What is the truth?
Why quote Pontius Pilate?
The answer to that question is that study (re the idea that we exist within a created thing) leads one to The Truth.
I highly doubt Pontius Pilate was interested in such things. Those who are not interested can often be heard asking that question.
Jesus didn't offer PP an answer because 1.) The question was rhetorical and rhetorical questions require no answer and 2.) the answer is not easy to put to words that even one interested can grasp in decades (of subsequent study) let alone in a few moments before PP dismissed Jesus from his presence and the commandment of the attempted murder of Jesus took place.
So my answer to you (or any reader interested) is that if one truly desires The Truth, one has much study to do in order to arrive at The Truth.
One can continue to dwell with the mundane popular position and watch the world around them respond according, as a result of that.
What do you mean by "watch the world around them respond according"? Are you implying there is a negative consequence of believing the universe is actually real?
No. The negative consequence isn't because of that, but rather (I am saying) that to believe it is outside of The Creator Mind and reject the idea that it is inside/within The Creator Mind, is to invite/is the reason for negative consequences.
In what way does one's "perception of the world" "match" with one's idea they do not exist within the creator mind? What evidence attributed to Jesus supports such an assertion that ones perception we exist outside of the creator mind, is the truth?
What does the mundane popular position offer which sets (those involved with it) free from the misconceptions they prefer to engage with? (John 8:32 KJV)
Don't get what you're asking.
Do you also not get what Jesus was referring to in the context of the verse I gave as support?
"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not
in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever."
What I'm claiming is since the universe is perceptually real, it aligns with it being actually real.
Then you are not understanding Jesus' mindfulness in relation to those words.
If "sin" is "missing the mark" then one can say that thinking The Creator Mind is outside the creations of The Mind which created them (The House/The Creator Mind Jesus mentions), one is missing the mark.
This is why Jesus appeared to be so anti- organised religion. Because organised religion (which you appear to subscribe to per this teaching and which I referred to as "the mundane popular position") teaches this false perception.
If such "have no bearing" and one cannot truthfully claim that anything within the creator mind is "false" then one can place any argument which claims so, in the rubbish.
No idea what you're claiming. I'm not arguing what is true or false in the creator's mind.
Indeed. What makes you think/gives you the impression there could be anything FALSE within The Creator Mind?
Why is it that one would think in such terms about such a concept?
IF
The Creator Mind = The Real
THEN
Anything created within said mind would be TRUE. The idea that there is even an option of "true or false" is missing the mark.
As an example of missing the mark (sin), the Garden Story offers that the Serpent lied in that it
did not convey the whole truth, but only
part of the whole truth, thus "lying" while speaking truth.
This is confirmed by the Creator-Character in the story...where The Serpent claimed that the human couple would
"be as gods, knowing good and evil." and Creator-Character claiming (And the LORD God said),
"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"
In the sense of the wording, The Creator Mind is not telling the gods that the humans are now "gods" but that the humans know the difference between a "good" and an "evil".
The difference is that the gods not only know what is "good" and what is "evil", but that they also know the optimum way forward in relation to such knowledge. They know what to do in Truth, in relation to having that knowledge.
The humans were not "like"/did not "become like" the gods in that regard, so in that sense, the Serpent lied by
not telling the whole truth. The
whole truth would have been along the lines of "your eyes shall be opened but you
will not "be like the gods" in your knowing (of good and of evil).
If one understands that one exists within the creator mind, one is free to chose to perceive the experience without misconception and one will find the better ways to connect the dots one is required to connect within that perception and be carried into the freedom promised by Jesus (re what happens to those who understand (follow) his words).
People of all various beliefs claim they will be "carried into freedom", "experience nirvana", "attain enlightenment", etc, but that doesn't make what they believe about the nature of reality to be true.
I am not arguing otherwise. I am simply pointing to The mystic Jesus in this circumstance.
The choice is clear. Continue to follow the mundane popular as one's misperceived "truth" or consider the wisdom of following the "extreme minority position" (as you worded that) and be freed.
Presenting a false dilemma is not making choices clear.
Unless what I am presenting is not false re the dilemma.
The choices presented are clear enough as worded. What clarity do you still require to convince you they are not?
The question is, are you willing to give that concept time and space within your reality experience, that it can and thus will show you (provide you evidence/confirm itself true to you) that all doubt is erased and understanding is complete?
That's why I'm asking you for the evidence and arguments of why we are in God's mind. I'm not asking for the "benefits" of believing everything is in God's mind.
The benefits are the natural result of the understanding that everything exists within The Creator Mind.
That is the point.
The evidence and arguments are being given to you (and any other readers) and the question as to whether one is willing or not to do the study and confirm the evidence given is true re their individual experience as a growing human personality, is answered in their choice of action.
This is why I offered something of a simple enough starting point, when I wrote "Re that, it is not hard to "imagine" one is within The Creator Mind and given enough time and space one
will be shown by said Creator Mind that such is not merely the product of ones' imagination, but real indeed.
The question is,
are you willing to give that concept time and space within your reality experience,
that it can and thus will show you (provide you evidence/confirm itself true to you) that all doubt is erased and understanding is complete?"
Therein I am specifically pointing out a similarity between the nature of your demands (for me to provide you with the evidence that only The Creator Mind can provide for you) and the nature of atheistic demands, which (as you are well aware) have it that Christians should provide them with the evidence that we exist within a created thing/form.
And what do you say to them? Something along the lines that "they must do the work for themselves", correct?
Or, spoken another way, what I am asking you to do/try out is this.
"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
And re our mindfulness "
where to go" in relation to this "Kingdom of God"? Specifically
within said mindfulness, with in mind, this is ultimately the path to learning to understand The Creator Mind. A "grand study" in itself.
However, if one does not make the effort to go there, one can hardly be innocent of the charge of turning a blind eye to the evidence one could have found, if one only made the choice to look where (the mystic) Jesus is pointing...
The opportunity to study the evidence is why I linked our conversation with another perspective and shared that data...so that it might serve to help you - the reader and seeker - to have another independent perspective confirm said nature of data as being legitimate/coherent.
I therefore, provide the link again.
Exploring Existence within the Creator's Mind
