The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]

Ahh! it was post #37. John explains what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus about the Feast of the Tabernacles. John 3 thru John 7 occurred during Feast. Nicodemus was there.

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #48]
Yes, Thanks MissKate13

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No.

You do not need to be baptized in order to become saved.

Baptism is something you after you become saved...but it is nothing something you do to become saved.

It is important to know the difference.

[MissKate13]

Thank you for your post!

I understand that is what you have been taught.

I ask you the following:

Where is the Scripture says you’re saved before baptism?

I believe we are saved by Grace through faith, but please tell me where is the Scripture that says baptism is a work of man?

Have a blessed day!
Kate

[MissKate13]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #52]

Good Morning Bob,

I’m sorry you didn’t attempt to refute my post #39. I have found that Baptists, when confronted with Romans 6:3-7 and Colossians 2:11-12, usually have no response. Rather than opening the eyes of their hearts and reading those passages again and again word for word, they prefer to stay with their prior teachings. I get that. People hate being wrong. I know. I was there once.

It is at the point of baptism that the believer is made alive in Christ. Baptism is the time God chose to save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is how Peter could write, “Baptism now saves you.” It is our appeal to God for a good conscience.

Questions for your consideration:

What Scripture says baptism is a work of man? Colossians 2:13 says it’s the “working of God,” a circumcision made without hands.

What Scripture says we are saved before baptism?

Were the demons saved when they believed Jesus was the Son of God?

I wish you the very best.

Kate

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #52]

Good Morning Bob,

I’m sorry you didn’t attempt to refute my post #39. I have found that Baptists, when confronted with Romans 6:3-7 and Colossians 2:11-12, usually have no response. Rather than opening the eyes of their hearts and reading those passages again and again word for word, they prefer to stay with their prior teachings. I get that. People hate being wrong. I know. I was there once.

It is at the point of baptism that the believer is made alive in Christ. Baptism is the time God chose to save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is how Peter could write, “Baptism now saves you.” It is our appeal to God for a good conscience.

Questions for your consideration:

What Scripture says baptism is a work of man? Colossians 2:13 says it’s the “working of God,” a circumcision made without hands.

What Scripture says we are saved before baptism?

Were the demons saved when they believed Jesus was the Son of God?

I wish you the very best.

Those who believe they have been made alive through belief alone would have no need of baptism. It is those who are spiritually dead in sin have the need to be baptized. We don’t bury the living. We bury the dead!

Look very closely at what Paul is saying in Romans 6.

When we are immersed in water, we are united with Christ in His death (6:5).

Our old self was crucified with Him in order that our body of sin might be done away with (6:6).

The one who has died is free from sin (6:7).

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be
in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin. (Romans 6:3-7)

It is at the time of baptism that you were made alive in Christ, and not the moment you believed.

you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings. (Colossians 2:11-13)

And finally, it is God who does the work at our baptism. It is through your faith that you are raised with Him (2:12).

It is true that we are not saved by works, We are saved by Grace through faith. However, there is not a single Scripture that says baptism is “a work” of man. That is a doctrine of men.

Be blessed this Lord’s Day!

Kate

Kate

Miss Kate13

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit HIMSELF (nothing or no one else) bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. Paul says clearly, all God requires to be heirs is the Spirit indwelling and He requires belief before he becomes your intercessor to God. No ceremony of baptism or circumcision.

I didn't refute it because I do not disagree with what you posted except you did not read my post where Paul tells you more than once that The Holy Spirit indwelling is received at the moment of belief. I do not read from your post that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received at baptism. You are not disagreeing with Baptists, you are disagreeing with the apostle Paul.

Ephesians 1:13-14 And you (fill in your name here) also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. WHEN you believed, you were marked in Him with a seal (not to be broken), the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit WHEN YOU BELIEVED?” (as they
should have) They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

Galatians 3:1-3 You foolish Galatians (or fill in your name here)! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?’

HEARING AND FAITH (BELIEF)! To me, it does not make sense that I did not hear and believe until the moment of baptism. I believed when I was a child and "walked the isle" when I was a teenager, baptized a week later. You or any human can not tell me when I received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, only God who knows the hearts and minds of men. Paul the apostle to us gentiles does not agree with you. I do not disagree with the scripture you posted. It explains the story of the gospel that saves you through the symbology of baptismal ceremony, an appeal to God for a good conscience from then on (Peters words), but it does not say that I believed at the moment of baptism. I was STILL believing from the initial moment of belief as a child.

The bible says clearly we are not Christians unless we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9) and it says without refute, we receive the indwelling when we believe (Eph 1:13)

Also, I'm new to this site and I've strayed too far from the subject of the misconceptions of the thief on the cross. But there is no debate on WHEN we receive the indwelling.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]

Ahh! it was post #37. John explains what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus about the Feast of the Tabernacles. John 3 thru John 7 occurred during Feast. Nicodemus was there.

I'm sorry I still don't understand what you believe being "born [again] of water" means... could you write a sentence along the lines of ": To be born again of water means ...{fill in the black with a few words}

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]

Ahh! it was post #37. John explains what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus about the Feast of the Tabernacles. John 3 thru John 7 occurred during Feast. Nicodemus was there.

I'm sorry I still don't understand what you believe being "born [again] of water" means... could you write a sentence along the lines of ": To be born again of water means ...{fill in the black with a few words}

If you will open up a debate on your question, I will gladly post what Jesus preached and Paul clarifies at the Feast of Tabernacles in the book of John. Your NW translation of the bible being different, I'm not sure you will agree, but I'll hang with ya until you've had enough of me...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]

Ahh! it was post #37. John explains what Jesus was teaching Nicodemus about the Feast of the Tabernacles. John 3 thru John 7 occurred during Feast. Nicodemus was there.

I'm sorry I still don't understand what you believe being "born [again] of water" means... could you write a sentence along the lines of ": To be born again of water means ...{fill in the black with a few words}

If you will open up a debate on your question, I will gladly post what Jesus preached and Paul clarifies at the Feast of Tabernacles in the book of John. Your NW translation of the bible being different, I'm not sure you will agree, but I'll hang with ya until you've had enough of me...

Thanks for your response; that's much clearer. Interesting and informative,


JW

[MissKate13]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #56]

Thanks for responding, Bob! I’m away from home today, so I can’t address your entire post. I will do that later today. I especially want to give you my view concerning the thief on the cross.

Please take a closer look at Ephesians 1:13. Look at it in its original Greek language. The verse does not say one is saved the MOMENT they believe. It doesn’t say one is saved WHEN they believe. It says “having believed”. It doesn’t say the Ephesians weren’t baptized. In fact, we know for certain the Ephesians were baptized. See Acts 19:1-5.

The thing is, Bob, Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. We must reconcile all the Scriptures concerning baptism together. We cannot use one Scripture to refute what other verses say, and we need to be very careful not to read things into Scripture that simply are not there.

Romans 6:3-7 teaches that we are united together in the likeness of Christ’s death when we are immersed in water. Paul says our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with. For he who has died has been freed from sin..

Colossians 2:11-13 teaches us that baptism is a circumcision made without hands. It says baptism is the “working of God.” It says at baptism is when we are made alive, and our trespasses have been forgiven.

Baptism is the immediate context of both passages.

I pray your day has been blessed!

Kate