How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy

[otseng]

They clearly do not say anything other than a thing was created. Indeed, simulations are created things.

It doesn't say God created a simulator and we are beings inside a simulator.

The bible doesn't mention dinosaurs either. What is your point?

My point is the most natural reading of all the passages I presented is God created everything as real things. There is no indication what God created is a computer/machine and we are simulations inside that computer.

If you claim we're simply a simulation inside a computer, on what basis do you have for that claim?

[William]

I wasn't arguing a computer. I think it more along the lines of inside the workings of the creator mind.

Nor was I claiming it is so, but rather questioning your claim that it is not.

If all you have as argument is that it isn't the way the script is normally read, (or how most folk are taught to believe), that in itself is besides the point. (Argument from popularity).

Not only can the Bible be read differently, but in doing so, understanding we are inside the creator mind makes sense of - not only the Bible stories, but ALL theistic stories.

Including phenomena such as NDEs, visions, miracles, answered prayers, transfigurations, et al.

Also, a simulation can be experienced as a real thing. Anything within the creator mind can.

[otseng]

I wasn't arguing a computer. I think it more along the lines of inside the workings of the creator mind.

OK.

Nor was I claiming it is so, but rather questioning your claim that it is not.

It's not my burden to disprove a claim that nobody is making or supporting.

If all you have as argument is that it isn't the way the script is normally read, (or how most folk are taught to believe), that in itself is besides the point. (Argument from popularity).

I've never heard of any Christian hold the position reality is just a simulation inside the mind of God. If the Biblical evidence is for the popular position, then it's the best (and only) position that is reasonable.

Not only can the Bible be read differently, but in doing so, understanding we are inside the creator mind makes sense of - not only the Bible stories, but ALL theistic stories.

Again, what evidence is there in the Bible to read it this way?

Including phenomena such as NDEs, visions, miracles, answered prayers, transfigurations, et al.

There is no need to invoke a simulation to explain these. These can also happen in a real world.

Also, a simulation can be experienced as a real thing. Anything within the creator mind can.

If God has the power to actually create a real thing rather than a simulation, why would he simulate it instead?

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #4063]

It's not my burden to disprove a claim that nobody is making or supporting.

You wrote.

Is our universe real?

And specifically answered your question with the claim.

Yes, we are not part of a simulation.

I've never heard of any Christian hold the position reality is just a simulation inside the mind of God.

What about any Jew?

Why do you think Jesus is said to have said that the kingdom of God is within? If Jesus thought God existed outside the universe, why tell us to go within?

If the Biblical evidence is for the popular position, then it's the best (and only) position that is reasonable.

This is based not only upon argument from popularity but also a misconception humans have in relation to their position within the mind of the creator.
Scientists also believe that we do not exist in the mind of the creator based, not upon the evidence but rather upon the perception.
The perception - while understandable - shouldn't automatically be assumed as true. What study have you (as a Christian) done that your sureness about your current perception is the truth? What evidence do you have that you can claim with confidence that "we are not part of a simulation" (that we are not part of the goings on in the creator's mind)?

Not only can the Bible be read differently, but in doing so, understanding we are inside the creator mind makes sense of - not only the Bible stories, but ALL theistic stories.

Again, what evidence is there in the Bible to read it this way?

What evidence in the bible is there to read it in any particular way?

What evidence is there that the stories have to be taken literally rather than as analogies to do with the goings on in human minds - minds which do not understand they exist within the mind of the creator?

Including phenomena such as NDEs, visions, miracles, answered prayers, transfigurations, et al.

There is no need to invoke a simulation to explain these. These can also happen in a real world.

What makes you think that if all things are happening in the creators mind, that they must somehow be regarded as "false" (as opposed to "real")?

Also, a simulation can be experienced as a real thing. Anything within the creator mind can.

If God has the power to actually create a real thing rather than a simulation, why would he simulate it instead?

That is neither here nor there.

Rather, if the creator has such power to create anything which can be experienced as real, (and also can be changed in the blink of an eye), why would the creator find it necessary not to have everything which can be experienced, within the creators mind, rather than "some place" outside the creators mind? Why go to such lengths if it isn't necessary to do so?

Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2Pe 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Exploring Reality: Simulation within the Mind of the Creator

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to otseng in post #4061

My point is the most natural reading of all the passages I presented is God created everything as real things. There is no indication what God created is a computer/machine and we are simulations inside that computer.

What justifies such a hyperliteral interpretation?

[otseng]

I've never heard of any Christian hold the position reality is just a simulation inside the mind of God.

What about any Jew?

What about Jews? Are you suggesting there are Jews that believe this?

Why do you think Jesus is said to have said that the kingdom of God is within? If Jesus thought God existed outside the universe, why tell us to go within?

What does this have to do with either the universe is real or simulated?

This is based not only upon argument from popularity but also a misconception humans have in relation to their position within the mind of the creator.

How can you claim it's a "misconception" if you're not even claiming nor supporting we are in God's mind as a simulation?

Scientists also believe that we do not exist in the mind of the creator based, not upon the evidence but rather upon the perception.

So, do you claim though we perceive the universe is real, it actually is not?

The perception - while understandable - shouldn't automatically be assumed as true.

Until evidence is presented to the contrary, it is reasonable to hold that it is real.

What study have you (as a Christian) done that your sureness about your current perception is the truth? What evidence do you have that you can claim with confidence that "we are not part of a simulation" (that we are not part of the goings on in the creator's mind)?

The first reason is because we perceive it to be real and we all act as if it was real.

And I turn the question around, what study have you done and what evidence do you have that we are inside God's mind? Why should anyone accept your extreme minority position?

What evidence is there that the stories have to be taken literally rather than as analogies to do with the goings on in human minds - minds which do not understand they exist within the mind of the creator?

Because it matches with our perception of the world.

Including phenomena such as NDEs, visions, miracles, answered prayers, transfigurations, et al.

There is no need to invoke a simulation to explain these. These can also happen in a real world.

What makes you think that if all things are happening in the creators mind, that they must somehow be regarded as "false" (as opposed to "real")?

My point is NDEs, visions, etc have no bearing on either if the universe is real or simulated.

If God has the power to actually create a real thing rather than a simulation, why would he simulate it instead?

That is neither here nor there.

Hand waving the argument away doesn't address my point. If something is simulated, that mean there's a potential actual thing that is being simulated. For example, in Flight simulator, it is all based on actual planes and the real world. And I would argue creating something that is real is more difficult than creating a simulation of it. And since God has the power to create a real universe, it would make no sense to simulate it instead.

Rather, if the creator has such power to create anything which can be experienced as real, (and also can be changed in the blink of an eye), why would the creator find it necessary not to have everything which can be experienced, within the creators mind, rather than "some place" outside the creators mind? Why go to such lengths if it isn't necessary to do so?

Again, I don't have to counter the negative if you're not willing to support the position.

[otseng]

[Replying to otseng in post #4061

My point is the most natural reading of all the passages I presented is God created everything as real things. There is no indication what God created is a computer/machine and we are simulations inside that computer.

What justifies such a hyperliteral interpretation?

Since this is how practically all people interpret it, it would not be a "hyperliteral" interpretation, but a natural reading. Instead, the view that we are in a simulation would be the anomalous interpretation.

Do you claim we are in a simulation? What arguments do you present to support that?

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #4066]

I've never heard of any Christian hold the position reality is just a simulation inside the mind of God.

What about any Jew?

What about Jews? Are you suggesting there are Jews that believe this?

I avoid referring to such things as “just a simulation” (as you chose to word it) et al .
Certainly there are Jews that understand this. Here is one such example.

Why do you think Jesus is said to have said that the kingdom of God is within? If Jesus thought God existed outside the universe, why tell us to go within?

What does this have to do with either the universe is real or simulated?

It has to do with where to seek and find the creator of every reality experience.

How can you claim it's a "misconception" if you're not even claiming nor supporting we are in God's mind as a simulation?

My task is to offer the alternative in regard to what it is folk are claiming. In this case, you are claiming that we are not part of a simulation because simulations are not "real" and I give reason as to why we can think of being within the creator mind as both simulation and real, because in that regard these are not exclusive to each other and to think that they must have to be, is a misconception.

Scientists also believe that we do not exist in the mind of the creator based, not upon the evidence but rather upon the perception.

So, do you claim though we perceive the universe is real, it actually is not?

The universe is one of the "mansions" within The Father's House. (John 14:2 KJV) While they exist they can (obviously) be experienced as real. They can also be changed (remodeled) or simply erased (as is supported by the bible verses given)
The perception (leading to misconception) is that the universe is outside of the creator mind and that this somehow makes the universe "real" whereas if it were inside the creator mind is somehow "cannot be real", is the misconception.

The perception - while understandable - shouldn't automatically be assumed as true.

Until evidence is presented to the contrary, it is reasonable to hold that it is real.

Conflating "real" and "true" is part of the misconception. The evidence is being given anyway. If one is determined to interpret the stories in scripture as literally true, one can search the scripture and never connect with the creator mind in any deep and meaningful manner. (John 5:39-44 KJV)
Misconceptions can be experienced as real and not be true.

What study have you (as a Christian) done that your sureness about your current perception is the truth? What evidence do you have that you can claim with confidence that "we are not part of a simulation" (that we are not part of the goings on in the creator's mind)?

The first reason is because we perceive it to be real and we all act as if it was real.

What within it shows us how to act in accordance with what it is we experience within it?
Atheists also perceive the universe to be real and act as if it was real.

And I turn the question around, what study have you done and what evidence do you have that we are inside God's mind?

I have done (and will continue to do) plenty of study. I see (also - by your turnaround) that you have not studied such (as a Christian) because the Christianities specifically teach that the creator mind is outside this universe.

Any sureness about such a perception is without/has no foundation in the truth.

Why should anyone accept your extreme minority position?

None have to do any such thing. One can continue to dwell with the mundane popular position and watch the world around them respond according, as a result of that.

What evidence is there that the stories have to be taken literally rather than as analogies to do with the goings on in human minds - minds which do not understand they exist within the mind of the creator?

Because it matches with our perception of the world.

In what way does one's "perception of the world" "match" with one's idea they do not exist within the creator mind? What evidence attributed to Jesus supports such an assertion that ones perception we exist outside of the creator mind, is the truth?
What does the mundane popular position offer which sets (those involved with it) free from the misconceptions they prefer to engage with? (John 8:32 KJV)

Including phenomena such as NDEs, visions, miracles, answered prayers, transfigurations, et al.
There is no need to invoke a simulation to explain these.

These can also happen in a real world.

What makes you think that if all things are happening in the creators mind, that they must somehow be regarded as "false" (as opposed to "real")?

My point is NDEs, visions, etc have no bearing on either if the universe is real or simulated.

My point (and question) remains.

If such "have no bearing" and one cannot truthfully claim that anything within the creator mind is "false" then one can place any argument which claims so, in the rubbish.

Whatever world/place of dwelling one experiences within the creator mind, is real as long as it is being experienced by any minds doing so, and need never be thought of as "false" - even if said world/place of dwelling is only temporary/can change or be deleted.


If one understands that one exists within the creator mind, one is free to chose to perceive the experience without misconception and one will find the better ways to connect the dots one is required to connect within that perception and be carried into the freedom promised by Jesus (re what happens to those who understand (follow) his words).

Or one can continue to think the creator mind is separate from ones' experience and reap the wages of that thinking accordingly.

The choice is clear. Continue to follow the mundane popular as one's misperceived "truth" or consider the wisdom of following the "extreme minority position" (as you worded that) and be freed.

Re that, it is not hard to "imagine" one is within the creator mind and given enough time and space one will be shown by said creator that such is not merely the product of ones imagination, but real indeed.

The question is, are you willing to give that concept time and space within your reality experience, that it can and thus will show you (provide you evidence/confirm itself true to you) that all doubt is erased and understanding is complete?

Or said another way;
Matthew 6:25 - 6:34 KJV

Exploring Existence within the Creator's Mind

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to otseng in post #4067

Since this is how practically all people interpret it, it would not be a "hyperliteral" interpretation, but a natural reading. Instead, the view that we are in a simulation would be the anomalous interpretation.

I was recalling that this is the way you dismiss all of my natural readings of Bible text.

You can't argue that your reading of Isaiah 7 is "how practically all people interpret it", since Torah-observant Jews do not read it as you do.

[otseng]

I avoid referring to such things as “just a simulation” (as you chose to word it) et al .

It's not just me calling it a simulation. This is what was stated in the original article that started the entire discussion on philosophy:

More recently, the question has been reframed as the "brain in a vat" problem, or the Simulation Argument. And it could very well be that we're the products of an elaborate simulation.

https://gizmodo.com/8-great-philosophic ... ve-5945801

Really, it is a simulation that is the alternative position to our universe being real, not your position that we're in God's mind.

Certainly there are Jews that understand this. Here is one such example.

What does he specifically claim in the video?

Why do you think Jesus is said to have said that the kingdom of God is within? If Jesus thought God existed outside the universe, why tell us to go within?

What does this have to do with either the universe is real or simulated?

It has to do with where to seek and find the creator of every reality experience.

Sure, the kingdom of God is not a natural kingdom, but a spiritual kingdom. But this would be true whether the universe is real or simulated.

My task is to offer the alternative in regard to what it is folk are claiming. In this case, you are claiming that we are not part of a simulation because simulations are not "real" and I give reason as to why we can think of being within the creator mind as both simulation and real, because in that regard these are not exclusive to each other and to think that they must have to be, is a misconception.

Anyone can make up any alternative explanation, but that doesn't mean all explanations are equally plausible. What matters is the evidence and reasoning to support the claims. From a Biblical perspective, I've given passages to support things are created. From a theological perspective, I've presented the Flight simulator argument.

The universe is one of the "mansions" within The Father's House. (John 14:2 KJV) While they exist they can (obviously) be experienced as real.

Here's the passage:
[Jhn 14:2 KJV] 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/14/2

Highly doubtful the context is referring to saying there are many universes.

While they exist they can (obviously) be experienced as real.

I think, at a minimum, we can all agree the universe is perceived to be real.

The perception (leading to misconception) is that the universe is outside of the creator mind and that this somehow makes the universe "real" whereas if it were inside the creator mind is somehow "cannot be real", is the misconception.

The difference is between "perceptually real" and "actually real". We agree the universe is perceptually real. So the question is - is the universe actually real?

I have done (and will continue to do) plenty of study.

How have you studied to arrive at your conclusion we are in God's mind?

I see (also - by your turnaround) that you have not studied such (as a Christian) because the Christianities specifically teach that the creator mind is outside this universe.

So, I'm asking you for the evidence and arguments to support your position.

Any sureness about such a perception is without/has no foundation in the truth.

What is the truth?

One can continue to dwell with the mundane popular position and watch the world around them respond according, as a result of that.

What do you mean by "watch the world around them respond according"? Are you implying there is a negative consequence of believing the universe is actually real?

Because it matches with our perception of the world.

In what way does one's "perception of the world" "match" with one's idea they do not exist within the creator mind? What evidence attributed to Jesus supports such an assertion that ones perception we exist outside of the creator mind, is the truth?
What does the mundane popular position offer which sets (those involved with it) free from the misconceptions they prefer to engage with? (John 8:32 KJV)

Don't get what you're asking. What I'm claiming is since the universe is perceptually real, it aligns with it being actually real.

If such "have no bearing" and one cannot truthfully claim that anything within the creator mind is "false" then one can place any argument which claims so, in the rubbish.

No idea what you're claiming. I'm not arguing what is true or false in the creator's mind.

If one understands that one exists within the creator mind, one is free to chose to perceive the experience without misconception and one will find the better ways to connect the dots one is required to connect within that perception and be carried into the freedom promised by Jesus (re what happens to those who understand (follow) his words).

People of all various beliefs claim they will be "carried into freedom", "experience nirvana", "attain enlightenment", etc, but that doesn't make what they believe about the nature of reality to be true.

The choice is clear. Continue to follow the mundane popular as one's misperceived "truth" or consider the wisdom of following the "extreme minority position" (as you worded that) and be freed.

Presenting a false dilemma is not making choices clear.

The question is, are you willing to give that concept time and space within your reality experience, that it can and thus will show you (provide you evidence/confirm itself true to you) that all doubt is erased and understanding is complete?

That's why I'm asking you for the evidence and arguments of why we are in God's mind. I'm not asking for the "benefits" of believing everything is in God's mind.