The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[bob the baptist]

Good Morning Baptist Bob,

Thank you for your post! I appreciate the time you put into it. I am going to assume that your answer to my question “Does belief alone make one alive in Christ” is YES.. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Would you agree that baptism in the New Testament is described as a burial? Are we not buried with Christ in baptism? I refer you to the passage below.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

I look forward to your response.

Have a blessed day!
Kate

This is the way I understand it MissKate13. Of great interest to me is 1 Peter 3 where Peter explains what he meant by "baptism saves", that the baptism of John proclaiming repentance was no more :

1 Peter 3: 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison (until judgement, that his one time sacrifice was for all past sinners too, had they only believed as Noah) 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons (who did believe and obeyed), were brought safely through water.

Peter is comparing the likeness of the “new baptism” of how Christ was put to death in the flesh once, for all past/present/future sinners. Those disobedient spirits in verse 19 Jesus testified to would remain buried (covered with the water), but because Noah believed, he and his family would be saved. The water didn’t save them, their belief saved them so they would rise (saved by the ark), given a new life. We now rise with Christ and given a new life. Jesus died for all sinners that believed.

21 (NOW, the story of Christ’s death, burial, resurrection) Baptism, which (symbolically) corresponds to this (the story of Noah and the ark ), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body (you must believe the story of the gospel) but as an appeal to God for a good conscience (forgiveness of sin), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying that the story of Noah symbolizes the one time death, burial, and resurrection with Christ (the gospel) and the ceremony of baptism corresponds to the gospel too. Water did not save Noah or you. Belief in the story of Jesus Christ, saves you now. Baptism now represents (NIV says symbolizes) an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. By submitting to the ceremony of baptism we are asking God for a newness of life, to be born again. Again, Peter is not saying baptism saves, he’s saying the ceremony of baptism corresponds to the story of Noah. Gentiles, even today, find it difficult to understand Jewish laws, traditions, ceremonies, holy days, customs, etc. Peter is talking to Jews who would understand the analogy. Peter is the only one who used the term "baptism saves", but he teaches that baptism is the story of the gospel that saves those who believe. He is saying that because you now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you can now (as God's adopted family) ask for a clear clean conscious because of Jesus Christ. Before you became a Christian and received the indwelling Spirit, God did not hear you as he will only hear the prayers of the righteous man (a Christian).

The Apostle Paul taught the story of the gospel through water baptism but instead of comparing it to Noah and the flood Paul always seems more straight-forward in his approach with the gentiles.

Romans 6:3-11 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man (natural man) was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord"

We do not literally die with Christ! We are not literally buried with Christ! We do not literally defeat death with Christ! The water dunking does not literally save us! Baptism is the ceremonial description, a story, of the Gospel, the "appeal to God for a good conscience". Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, did not use the comparison of Noah because he was speaking to gentiles who knew nothing of the Jews stories and Paul was the guy who wanted gentile and Jew to worship the same way.

[MissKate13]

Thanks for responding so quickly, Bob! If at anytime I misrepresent anything you say, please let me know.

You say we are made alive in Christ when we believe.

You wrote:

“We do not literally die with Christ! We are not literally buried with Christ! We do not literally defeat death with Christ!”

Can you explain what you mean by “literally?”

I’ll be in and out all day. I’m working in my garden, which is growing beautifully. God is so good!

Be blessed,
Kate

[bob the baptist]

Thanks for responding so quickly, Bob! If at anytime I misrepresent anything you say, please let me know.

You say we are made alive in Christ when we believe.

You wrote:

“We do not literally die with Christ! We are not literally buried with Christ! We do not literally defeat death with Christ!”

Can you explain what you mean by “literally?”

I’ll be in and out all day. I’m working in my garden, which is growing beautifully. God is so good!

Be blessed,
Kate

Meaning its a ceremony that symbolizes.

[Stewardofthemystery]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

There are types and shadows of baptism shown in the O.T. Such as Paul shows below…

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
King James Version
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

As far as water baptism being necessary for salvation, that would fall under “the keeping of the commands of God.” Should we keep the commands of God? Yes

But if we say by keeping the commands of God we are saved, then salvation would come by keeping the works of the law and not by the grace of God. As we are saved by grace, not by keeping the works of the law.

Water baptism is a command by God but is done by the works of men, as it is performed by men; much like the circumcision of the flesh of the foreskin was done by the hands of men.

The one baptism that brings into the body of Christ is done by God, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But even though water baptism is done by men, it is still a command Jesus gave for us to keep to fulfill all righteousness. And if we truly love God and Christ, we will keep His commands.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Peace

[bob the baptist]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

There are types and shadows of baptism shown in the O.T. Such as Paul shows below…

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
King James Version
10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

As far as water baptism being necessary for salvation, that would fall under “the keeping of the commands of God.” Should we keep the commands of God? Yes

But if we say by keeping the commands of God we are saved, then salvation would come by keeping the works of the law and not by the grace of God. As we are saved by grace, not by keeping the works of the law.

Water baptism is a command by God but is done by the works of men, as it is performed by men; much like the circumcision of the flesh of the foreskin was done by the hands of men.

The one baptism that brings into the body of Christ is done by God, which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But even though water baptism is done by men, it is still a command Jesus gave for us to keep to fulfill all righteousness. And if we truly love God and Christ, we will keep His commands.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Peace

Yes, thank you. Baptism does not save, but it is in obedience to God's word that I choose to "appeal to God for a good heart" and to be witnessed by my brethren. God does not need me to do the ceremony but the brethren can not know the hearts and minds of those who proclaim the gospel of Christ. To them its about recognition. Which I think Mark 16:16 actually points out that we will recognize those who are saved by those signs and baptism. The thief on the cross is misconceived by many. I just think that the thief did not receive the baptism of John (although possible), and he certainly did not receive the new (yet to come) water baptism, and he there fore died, buried, and resurrected with Christ, again, the same story that baptism speaks of. He believed in the Gospel of Christ and possibly was (I believe) the most honored of all saved by Christ. No water baptism required.

[JehovahsWitness]

... he there fore died, buried, and resurrected with Christ.... No water baptism required.

Jesus said....

JOHN 3:5

“unless anyone is born from water [baptised] and spirit [spirit anointed], he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

Since the thief was either, he will not be going to heaven to rule with Jesus as a King in his kingdom (compare Rev 20:6) .


WHAT DID JESUS PROMISE THE REPENTANT THIEF?

Remember, the thief requested Jesus remember him when he [Jesus] gets into his kingdom. In response Jesus didn't promise the thief rulership in the kingdom, in fact he made no mention of the kingdom. Jesus did not reply: " You will be with me in my kingdom" Instead he promised the theif ... PARADISE. Why did Jesus promise paradise Instead of kingdom?



The word "paradise" originally simple meant "garden" so the thief was offered a resurrection onto a PARADISE earth , as a subject of the kingdom government of which Christ is the head (along with baptised born again spirit anointed Christians)

[bob the baptist]

... he there fore died, buried, and resurrected with Christ.... No water baptism required.

Jesus said....

JOHN 3:5

“unless anyone is born from water [baptised] and spirit [spirit anointed], he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

Since the thief was either, he will not be going to heaven to rule with Jesus as a King in his kingdom (compare Rev 20:6) .


WHAT DID JESUS PROMISE THE REPENTANT THIEF?

Surely you remember the whole story!

John 3:5 Jesus (at feast of Tabernacles) answered him (Nicodemus the Pharisee priest), “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water (not water baptism, John 7:37-39 explains) and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (see John 7:37) 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.”
Jesus and Nicodemas would meet again at the upcoming Feast of the Tabernacles and “born of water” would be made clear.

John 7:37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So paraphrased Jesus is teaching Nicodemus and the crowd about the water libation ceremony within the feast of tabernacles that you must be born of Him (belief) in the coming Spirit (newness of life). On the last or “great” day of the feast, the water libation rite reached its climax. The priests circled the altar seven times and then “poured out” the water (Spirit) with great pomp and ceremony. This was Hoshana Rabbah, the great “HOSHIANA,” (which translated is “save now”). Jesus proclaimed “If anyone drinks of Me” in God’s Temple, which demonstrated that He was (and still is) these waters of salvation. This was the very place where Peter preached on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and the Holy Spirit was “poured out”. It was also the place where the Rabbis used to teach of the coming Messiah “save now”).
And further down in John 7 you see that Nicodemus was there, this same priest had previously asked Jesus, how can a man be born twice in John 3:9. In John 3:10 Jesus exclaims that Nicodemus is a Rabbi and doesn’t understand what the upcoming feast is all about.

John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the (upcoming) Spirit (The whole world will be offered salvation).” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be (he did not understand what Jesus was prophesying)?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony (Jews who would not believe the Gospel). 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe (His fulfillment of previous prophecies and what is yet to come ), how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things (meaning of crucifixion, the gospel, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and “born again”)? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven (so he knows the heavenly things), the Son of Man (after He ascends, the Holy Spirit comes). 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up (symbol of upcoming cruscifixion), 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Nicodemus is even more confused and frustrated now. But Jesus said these things knowing of the upcoming Feast of the Tabernacles that Nicodemus himself would probably be carrying around the alter the source of water called “Yeshua” he poured had to be “Living Water” direct from God as in rainfall or a natural moving springs (springs of Siloam which means gently flowing water). Then Jesus would declare himself (to Nicodemus again as well as others at the festival) that he is God in human form (the scripture filling messiah). And as Jesus told Nicodemus, he still would not believe it. John was telling us that the ceremony of baptism as they knew it would later represent the gospel of Jesus. The water would represent immersion with the Holy Spirit and the lowering represents the dying with Christ, and the raising up out of the waters would represent our new life with Christ. But the ceremony does not save us, only our belief in this story of the gospel that baptism tells.

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Of interest: John 4:13-14 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
Again, the prophecy of the Holy Spirit outpouring to those who believed the gospel.

[JehovahsWitness]

WHAT DID JESUS PROMISE THE REPENTANT THIEF?

Remember, the thief requested Jesus remember him when he [Jesus] gets into his kingdom. In response Jesus didn't promise the thief rulership in the kingdom, in fact he made no mention of the kingdom. Jesus did not reply: " You will be with me in my kingdom" Instead he promised the theif ... PARADISE.

Why did Jesus promise paradise Instead of kingdom?



The word "paradise" originally simple meant "garden" so the thief was offered a resurrection onto a PARADISE earth , as a subject of the kingdom government of which Christ is the head (along with baptised born again spirit anointed Christians)

Surely you remember the whole story!

Yes I do, what is your point?

[MissKate13]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #33]

Good Morning Bob,

I agree with you that our baptism symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Our burial in the water and our being raised up out of the water is a picture of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection. It is is what He commanded each of us who believe in Him to do.

Being put into the water represents the death of our "old man" with his sinful way of life. Being completely covered by water symbolizes burial, and being raised from the water pictures a resurrection to "newness of life."

Those who believe they have been made alive through belief alone would have no need of baptism. It is those who are spiritually dead in sin have the need to be baptized. We don’t bury the living. We bury the dead!

Look very closely at what Paul is saying in Romans 6.

When we are immersed in water, we are united with Christ in His death (6:5).

Our old self was crucified with Him in order that our body of sin might be done away with (6:6).

The one who has died is free from sin (6:7).

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be
in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin. (Romans 6:3-7)

It is at the time of baptism that you were made alive in Christ, and not the moment you believed.

you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings. (Colossians 2:11-13)

And finally, it is God who does the work at our baptism. It is through your faith that you are raised with Him (2:12).

It is true that we are not saved by works, We are saved by Grace through faith. However, there is not a single Scripture that says baptism is “a work” of man. That is a doctrine of men.

Be blessed this Lord’s Day!

Kate

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #38]

The thief was promised that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise. You rightfully pointed out the definition of paradise being a garden.

However you attached the word “earth” to your definition, which is a teaching of men (Jehovah’s Witnesses).

There isn’t a single Scripture in all of the Bible that uses the phrase “paradise earth.” It is the concoction of false teachers!