JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[TheHolyGhost]

Which one of those 3 names were you baptized?

I believe it was all three.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore,
and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father,
and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I see NAME not NAMES. Do you see NAME or do you see NAMES?

I see name implied three times.

How many times do you see names applied?

Definition of applied: be applicable or relevant.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore,
and teach all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The word name is applicable to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in Matthew 28:19.

Very good, they all have the same name, not 3 names.

How so?

All things are possible with God.

According to the scriptures, there are things which we can do, but that God cannot do.

According to the scriptures nothing is impossible with God.

[myth-one.com]

According to the scriptures nothing is impossible with God.

According to the scriptures, it is impossible for God to tell a lie:

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

[onewithhim]

According to the scriptures nothing is impossible with God.

According to the scriptures, it is impossible for God to tell a lie:

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Excellent. And one other thing. God cannot die.

[onewithhim]

According to the scriptures nothing is impossible with God.

According to the scriptures, it is impossible for God to tell a lie:

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Excellent. And one other thing. God cannot die.

And...God cannot build a mountain high enough that He Himself cannot reach the top.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1584]

Could some more people reply to the OP? That is the basis for a very good discussion.

[onewithhim]

Here's the interlinear for that :

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-58.htm

You could see just looking at the words what the reaction would be. Does it mean he claimed to be God? Maybe, but since every where else he says otherwise, I believe it to be wordplay to irritate the audience.

My Hendrickson Interlinear says the same thing, but I believe that, to be p.c. concerning those who believe Jesus is God, the translators rendered "ego eimi" as if these words were standing alone. This should not be done when translating an entire sentence, be cause grammar and sentence structure and translation rules must be taken into consideration. The translators must produce a sentence that is good and proper English, with tenses not contradicting each other.

BeDuhn says: The verse "can be rendered straightforwardly into English by doing what translators always do with Greek, namely, rearrange the word order into normal English order, and adjust things like verbal tense complimentarity into PROPER ENGLISH EXPRESSION. These steps of translation are necessary because Greek and English are not the same language and do not obey the same rules of grammar.Leaving the translation at the stage of a lexical ('interlinear') rendering, which is one way to describe what most translations do here, simply won't work. This is because Greek has more flexibility with word order than English does, and it can mix verbal tenses in a way English cannot." (Truth in Translation, pp.104,105)

This whole verb tense thing is the key to understanding what has happened concerning this verse in John. When verb tenses are used in a way outside of usual translational expectations, it is called an "idiom." Because Greek idioms are different from English idioms, translators do not translate these expressions word-for-word but rather convey the meaning of the Greek idiom IN PROPER, COMPREHENSIBLE ENGLISH.

That is what translators are supposed to do. As BeDuhn says, "It is ungrammatical English for something referred to with a present 'am' to occur earlier in time than something described with a past 'came to be.' ...In John 8:58, since Jesus' existence is not completed past action, but ongoing, we must use some sort of imperfect verbal form to convey that: "I have been (since) before Abraham came to be." That is as close as we can get to what the Greek says in our own language if we pay attention to ALL parts of the sentence."

So I think we can see that most translations do not consider all the parts of the sentence, in accord with proper translation rules regarding the translating of Greek to English. Why is this? Pure bias.

.

[Capbook]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

Jesus did not claim to be God but the Father said unto the Son, Your throne O God.
Let me cite Adam Clark's Commentary;

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This verse is very properly considered a proof, and indeed a strong one, of the Divinity of Christ.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

Jesus did not claim to be God but the Father said unto the Son, Your throne O God.
Let me cite Adam Clark's Commentary;

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This verse is very properly considered a proof, and indeed a strong one, of the Divinity of Christ.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

This is most likely not the proper translation. In verse 9 we see that the Son has a God. "You loved righteousness and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners."

Verse 8 seems to contradict verse 9. So how can we resolve this problem? The NT was composed in Greek, not English, and often there are no verbs in a sentence. "Is" in verse 8 is often omitted as unnecessary, but it makes all the difference as to what the verse means. In Greek it says, in an Interlinear translation, "the throne of you the god until the age of the age." Where does "is" belong in this sentence? You can see that bias could very well determine where "is" belongs.

"In Hebrews 1:8 we have two nouns, "throne" and "God." The verb "is" might go between these two nouns, as it does in dozens of cases saying "x is y" in the New Testament. If that is so, then the sentence reads: 'Your throne is God, forever and ever..' The NRSV, TEV, and the NWT translators recognize this a possible translation of the verse and include it in a footnote. Which translation is more probable?"

Ho theos is more likely to mean "God," as it does hundreds of times throughout the NT, than "O God." Interestingly, there is no other way to say "God is your throne" than the way Hebrews 1:8 reads. (Also, on the basis of literary content, we can say that Jesus is not called "God" anywhere else in Hebrews.) The Complete Jewish Bible, translated by David H. Stern puts Psalm 45:6,7, from which Hebrews 8 is taken, as this: "Your throne, God"...not "O God." So this translation shows Jewish thought on the meaning of the verse. I think it is appropriate to translate Hebrews 1:8 as Psalm 45 is translated.

It must be concluded that "God is your throne" is the most probable translation, found in the NWT and the footnotes of the NRSV and TEV. Three well-respected scholars of the NT---Westcott, Moffat, and Goodspeed---came to the same conclusion independently. (If this verse were quoted in the NT in reference to anyone else, the translators would have not hesitated to translate it as "God is your throne..." It seems likely that it is only because most translations were made by people who already believe that Jesus is God that the less probable way of translating this verse has been preferred.) When we concede that "God is your throne" is on the table, so to speak, the two verses, verse 8 and verse 9 do not contradict each other and make perfect sense, especially when compared to Psalm 45 of a Jewish Bible.

For further information, see the book Truth in Translation by Jason BeDuhn, associate professor of religious studies at Northern Arizona University, in Flagstaff, pp. 97-101, copyright 2003, University Press of America.