Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[POI]

Your description does not fit the God I know but includes deities others pray to.

When you pray, how do you know you are not talking to yourself?

[The Nice Centurion]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

TRANSPY, cognitive dissonance needs to be nurtured. The Priests and Pastors cant do all that nurture alone, without the help of the believers.

So they command them to autosuggest themselves their subterfuge under the religion.

Therefore they say: PRAY.

That is the main reason why people need to pray

[Mae von H]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

TRANSPY, cognitive dissonance needs to be nurtured. The Priests and Pastors cant do all that nurture alone, without the help of the believers.

So they command them to autosuggest themselves their subterfuge under the religion.

Therefore they say: PRAY.

That is the main reason why people need to pray

The only amazing part of this is how much authority you assume on a subject you obviously know nothing about. But the extremely biased and insulting view atheists have of believers is typical. Are there any atheists who can discuss christianity without distain for God and/ or believers?

[The Nice Centurion]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

TRANSPY, cognitive dissonance needs to be nurtured. The Priests and Pastors cant do all that nurture alone, without the help of the believers.

So they command them to autosuggest themselves their subterfuge under the religion.

Therefore they say: PRAY.

That is the main reason why people need to pray

The only amazing part of this is how much authority you assume on a subject you obviously know nothing about. But the extremely biased and insulting view atheists have of believers is typical. Are there any atheists who can discuss christianity without distain for God and/ or believers?

Hey, you

Why do you assume me to know nothing on the subject

Why do you think that to be obvious

Why do you assume me to be an atheist

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

TRANSPY, cognitive dissonance needs to be nurtured. The Priests and Pastors cant do all that nurture alone, without the help of the believers.

So they command them to autosuggest themselves their subterfuge under the religion.

Therefore they say: PRAY.

That is the main reason why people need to pray

I'd suggest it is like a lot of mental stuff - a mix of nature and nurture - instinct and learned instinct.

The natural instinct is to self -justification (to gain a Position in the community: "Street Cred") and to use human discussion/debate to find excuses, hypotheses and evasions to be Right or at least avoid admitting being wrong.

There comes a point where one "Chooses" between Faith and reason. One either admits they are wrong, or at least don't have the best case (and rationalism puts finding what's true as being more admirable than denying being wrong) or opting for Faith - which can be Faith in any claim from conspiracy theories, election - denial and political Dogma to religion/cult) but which is actually Faith in ones' own rightness.

That is an instinct, too. I have it,like anyone else, but "Atheism has made such a difference to my Life" and I learned that the truth is more important than clinging to a belief, no matter the evidence against.

The relevance being that the prayer/meditation instinct is still mysterious,- like NDEs or the OOB experience. As I say, I propose it has a survival - purpose or we would not have evolved it, and I guess social position and 'belonging' is part of it, and the need to cope with (if not control) the environment is part of it.

In the bone age, hunting magic was important (cave paintings) and in the neolithic, agriculture was the Thing, with henges and seasonal magic, and in the bronze age, politics and warfare led to war gods, such as Yahweh.

The need to control or at least have a handle on Nature led to trying to do a deal with the Powers like sacrificing something of value, like a beautifully polished hand axe, a fine bronze sword tossed in a lake (nowadays, shopping -trolleys), or of course a virgin daughter (and women say they weren't valued in antiquity ) while now we have a lot more control of and understanding of those things, but much is still a mystery, or an instinctive fear, like death. Atheism removes much of that so when it comes (any day now folks ) I won't fear it as there is nothing to lose but taxes, online adverts and persistent server surveillance. Have you seen we have as many bots as browsers!

But point is Prayer, asking favors of the Powers was ALWAYS a thing, and there is no more reason to believe it than your stars in the press or wherever they put the darn things these days.

[Masterblaster]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #85]

Hello TRANSPONDER
You are now back at the origins of religion....good.
That was when humans felt their presence outside of God for the first time. It happened in different places ,to different people, at different times, in the same way.

It is explained in Eden, ....an oblivious happiness within God, from our primate past, shattered by events ,probably beyond our control. We tripped up and we have been, subconsciously wishing for our previous existence to return, ever since. We are not a normal creature or life form, any more. We are lost, imho

The new Christian idea is that God is above his creation, and not in it, and that he picked us out of 'the class'to join his exclusivity. Now we have two similar entities looking down on everything else , having a chin-wag with each other. ( a bit like your post )

Wrong!
Wrong!

Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes, I'd say that's all Wrong, Wrong, too. And So individual that i doubt you will get any takers, so I see no point in debating that tall story.

If someone else wants to debate the theology, they are welcome. I debate Bibleclaims, not individual fantasies.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - " I debate Bibleclaims, not individual fantasies"

----

Maybe today, Sat 30/3/24, is the day that you will deliver on your rhetoric. ( I doubt it)

What is happening here, in this Bibleclaim. As they say in High School Exams,....' give reasons for your answers. Good Luck.

I cut this as much as I could...
The Genesis Bibleclaim
“I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side]of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

[Mae von H]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

TRANSPY, cognitive dissonance needs to be nurtured. The Priests and Pastors cant do all that nurture alone, without the help of the believers.

So they command them to autosuggest themselves their subterfuge under the religion.

Therefore they say: PRAY.

That is the main reason why people need to pray

The only amazing part of this is how much authority you assume on a subject you obviously know nothing about. But the extremely biased and insulting view atheists have of believers is typical. Are there any atheists who can discuss christianity without distain for God and/ or believers?

Hey, you

Why do you assume me to know nothing on the subject

Because your description doesn’t even come close to matching what those who successfully engage in this activity actually experience. It’s way off, at least for believers whose prayers are frequently positively answered. Cannot speak for Hindus and Muslims.

Why do you think that to be obvious

Because the matter is not how you describe it. How much plainer can I put it?

Why do you assume me to be an atheist

You don’t know the first thing about prayer.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #89]
Please give an example of how I should be wrong.

You are just naysaying.

That is not a debate!