Job 12: Is God active in the Natural World?

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Job12:
7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this?
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind

Somebody mentioned an Evolution phobia among Christians. What about a complete nature phobia?

Is God still turning up for work in our natural world?
(the best of Biblical Scripture states that he is).

Do you detect God in the natural world?

Why is this aspect of God largely ommitted from doctrine and discussion?
Is the mystical more attractive than the real?
Is Job correct in stating an awareness of God in all of creation?
Your opinion on this matter, please!

[Masterblaster]

Hello JehovahsWitness

Job 12:Who among all these does not know that the hand of Jehovah has done this?

This is a question. What does it ask? Isn't it a rhetorical expression of belief. What is it saying?
Who are the these referred to by Job?

I grow weary of all this to and fro, JW.
To quote Kurt Cobain, it is 'All apologies!'.

We have all kinds of deflection going on.

Look at this! Jesus goes to Calvary without a word of support or protest. Excuses are all around. It is such an embarrassment that the 'Get behind me Satan statement'has to suddenly appear. Now we didn't get in the way because we were not supposed to get in the way. Now that is funny in any book.

God will get the same support. We are right behind him all the way. We will watch the pillage and the rape with similar smug forewarning.
You are really stupid if you loose a game that you invented. So yes you are correct!

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello JehovahsWitness

Job 12:Who among all these does not know that the hand of Jehovah has done this?

This is a question. What does it ask? Isn't it a rhetorical expression of belief. What is it saying?

It's saying that by his own power Jehovah [YHWH] created all things and by that same dynamic energy all things [both animate and inanimate] continue to exist

Who are the these referred to by Job?

God's animate and inanimate creation.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

That is not what it says.
I have said my piece and I leave you with the ultimate excuse for not going to school.

MATTHEW 16
'Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.'

The teacher told us not to go!

Thanks

[JehovahsWitness]

... I leave you with the ultimate excuse for not going to school.

MATTHEW 16
'Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.'

The teacher told us not to go!

I really cannot see how the above passage is an argument against schooling; Jesus is simply disciplinjng Peter for his no doubt well meant, but ultimately wrong, thinking.

[Masterblaster]

Hello JehovahsWitness

You say - "Those that believe in a man made solution based on humans promises are displaying just as much faith (if not more) than any bible believing Christian."
-------

I totally agree with this. Here is the doctrinal problem , in a nutshell.

"In theological terms, nature is a form of “general revelation”. That is to say, nature reveals truths to us about God because He created it; his fingerprints are on it and his character influenced what He made. Nature is not as specific as the revelation God has given us through the Scriptures and Jesus."

As long as Christians stick to this line they will continue to spectate as their God is demolished.

Hello All

JehovahsWitness asks - (Post 33)
"What is problematic in the above statement?"

--------
This is the problem!

Evidence or Hearsay ?

If you have a simple choice between these two ,you will always, logically , choose evidence. Not so, the Christian Theists. They consciously shun Gods declared presence in the natural world (The Real God) for the God of scriptural machinations(The Mystical).

This choice is deliberate and permanent and fatal. They have been making up stories ever since. This is a building that is not grounded to the ground.,...a fallacy.

Argue differently if you can. Agree with me if you so wish. Thanks

[JehovahsWitness]

"In theological terms, nature is a form of “general revelation”. That is to say, nature reveals truths to us about God because He created it; his fingerprints are on it and his character influenced what He made. Nature is not as specific as the revelation God has given us through the Scriptures and Jesus."

If you have a simple choice between these two ,you will always, logically , choose evidence. Not so, the Christian Theists. They consciously shun Gods declared presence in the natural world (The Real God) for the God of scriptural machinations(The Mystical).

That may well be but the statement does not impose a "choice" between "nature" and "scripture" , nor does advocate rejecting "evidence" , it simply presents the idea that both nature and scripture reveal God in different ways. Most Christians I know, absolutely see God's hand in nature and praise Him for it. If that is what you mean by "Gods declared presence in the natural world" it is an idea completely in harmony with scriptue and Christian theology.

PSALM 19:1

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands

.

Your comment presents a false dichotomy not present in the quotation.

[Masterblaster]

"In theological terms, nature is a form of “general revelation”. That is to say, nature reveals truths to us about God because He created it; his fingerprints are on it and his character influenced what He made. Nature is not as specific as the revelation God has given us through the Scriptures and Jesus."

If you have a simple choice between these two ,you will always, logically , choose evidence. Not so, the Christian Theists. They consciously shun Gods declared presence in the natural world (The Real God) for the God of scriptural machinations(The Mystical).

That may well be but the statement does not impose a "choice" between "nature" and "scripture" , nor does advocate rejecting "evidence" , it simply presents the idea that both nature and scripture reveal God in different ways. Most Christians I know, absolutely see God's hand in nature and praise Him for it. If that is what you mean by "Gods declared presence in the natural world" it is an idea completely in harmony with scriptue and Christian theology.

PSALM 19:1

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands

.

Your comment presents a false dichotomy not present in the quotation.

Hello

No, it does not!
Attempt to follow me, JW,(if your Faith allows for such an indulgence, if it does not then politely, stand aside, and stop obstructing the logic).

The choice listed in the quote is between a general revelation of God and a more specific one. You said that you saw no problem with the quote.

Logically, actual evidence is specific and interpreted explanations are general. The card shuffle in the quote has this logic reversed.
You know this, JW. Christian theists know this. Atheists commentating should know this. Our readers need to consider this and finally I know this.

With the cards now in acceptable order,through a cognitive slight of hand, by Christian Theology, God is now , no longer in nature. He is over it. Nature is a reflection of his dexterity. When we throw plastic into the sea we are not choking God , we are merely offending him. Nothing a good dose of repentive prayers will not fix.
God cannot be messed up by a thug, in Christianity. He is, omni omni and then some. I wonder if he is omnivorous,...he probably is that too.

Do not come back at this,JW unless you do so in good faith.
Thanks

[JehovahsWitness]

The choice listed in the quote is between a general revelation of God and a more specific one.

"In theological terms, nature is a form of “general revelation”. That is to say, nature reveals truths to us about God because He created it; his fingerprints are on it and his character influenced what He made. Nature is not as specific as the revelation God has given us through the Scriptures and Jesus."

Please identify in the quote which words for you impose "choice" in the above quotation? Granted there are two thjngs mentioned, one specific and one non specific, but when two things are mentioned it doesnt necessarily mean one is being asked to choose between them.

To illustrate a mother presents her two children to you saying "This is my youngest , Bobby and here is my older Jane". Now she has presented two children to you , but has she asked you to choose one? Now if she did intend you to choose one, you might hear the phrase "Please choose the one you prefer" or "Which one would you like to take" or maybe "I'm selling one, the little one is cheapest and takes up less room". But just saying this one exists and that one also exists does not imply she wants you to choose one.

In the same way the writer effectively said, this type of revelation exists and that other revelation exists. One may or may not have a preference, but there are no words in the actual text that impose a choice or prohibit accepting both.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Logically, actual evidence is specific and interpreted explanations are general

Evidence is simply facts or information.

* EVIDENCE

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

By definition all evidence requires "interpretation" so evidence (whatever its source) cannot be contrasted with "interpreted explanations" . What is one "interpreting" if not some kind of information (read evidence)?

In reality, what is being contrasted is what the writer refers to as "general revelation" and "specifc" (scriptural) revelation", both of which (s)he claims give us information (evidence) about God.

The card shuffle in the quote has this logic reversed. You know this, JW.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. "Card shuffle" and "logic reversed" indicates you seem to think the quotation is confusing something ... but what exactly you think that is I cannot fathom. Possibly you think'that nature is more specific than scripture but specific to what I cannot even begin to guess.. .

[Masterblaster]

Hello JehovahsWitness

I said, regarding choice - "If you have a simple choice between these two ,you will always, logically , choose evidence. Not so, the Christian Theists. They consciously shun Gods declared presence in the natural world (The Real God) for the God of scriptural machinations(The Mystical).

If you are given a choice between Evidence or Hearsay ,you choose evidence all day long. If you can depend on the real or the mystical you choose the real, if you have a choice between scripture and nature you choose nature.

But then again, neither Christian's or you can make that choice. Do not engage with your obstructionist agenda where you move us away from the crime scene. You want to illustrate the concept of choice( I didn't even read it)

Your last point was even worse. Nature is specific evidence of God in action in real time, and scripture is slowly evolving into a general yarn about a yarn.
How can we establish a proper sense of God through fantasy.
The mystical is appealing and it is almost impossible to dispel. Far more interesting than plastic bottles.
For the general reader, please recap this 'to and fro ', from about 20 posts back.
Thanks