why did the Pharesses need JUDAS?

[Cogitoergosum]

Multiple places in the NT it was stated that the people recognised jesus without being introduced to him, as soon as they saw him. Multiple times jesus was questionned by the pharesses in an attempt to trick him.
So y did the pharessees need JUDAS to deliver JESUS? they knew who jesus was. so what is the role of judas?

[1213]

The gospels seem to say...

Would be good to read it and not make guesses.

That last is a good one, but don't you say yourself that people can't follow Jesus when he's dead

I don't think Jesus is dead. I say, he is not on earth, therefore people can't go to him and follow as in the scripture about the rich man.

[TRANSPONDER]

The gospels seem to say...

Would be good to read it and not make guesses.

That last is a good one, but don't you say yourself that people can't follow Jesus when he's dead

I don't think Jesus is dead. I say, he is not on earth, therefore people can't go to him and follow as in the scripture about the rich man.

I am not making guesses. I am recognising that the gospel of John says specifically that Judas had a devil as seen as Jesus chose him.I merely recognise that there may be room for debate.

Your point about Jesus' death is irrelevant. I do with you would keep up with the argument. Death was the term you used.Means no longer on earth. The point is Jesus could forgive sins while on earth and the disciples had trouble with this. The resurrection was when the disciples received the power to heal and preach and understand just as Jesus did.

Besides none of that is relevant to my point the crucifixion and resurrection was part of God's plan and necessary, yes? And the Sanhedrin and Judas were part of making that plan work, yes? And Pilate and the disciples and even Antipas were doing their best to scupper the whole plan of God's yes? It is nothing to do with your shibboleth about not being able to follow Jesus once he was gone from earth (which I recall, but maybe you don;'t) excused you from following his instruction to give all your stuff to the poor and follow him

The old joke is "I thought that was metaphorical" To which we can add "I thought that was only when he was on earth.Now he is just looking down at whether I'm following his teachings, it doesn't apply"

[1213]

I am not making guesses. I am recognising that the gospel of John says specifically that Judas had a devil as seen as Jesus chose him.I merely recognise that there may be room for debate.

I recommend to look it again, what it accurately says.

...The resurrection was when the disciples received the power to heal and preach and understand just as Jesus did.

By what the Bible tells, his disciples did that already when he was still on earth.

Besides none of that is relevant to my point the crucifixion and resurrection was part of God's plan and necessary, yes?

It was known that it will happen. But, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think that forgiveness required it.

The old joke is "I thought that was metaphorical" To which we can add "I thought that was only when he was on earth.Now he is just looking down at whether I'm following his teachings, it doesn't apply"

If the text says "come and follow", how can you go to him, if the person is not around?

[TRANSPONDER]

I am not making guesses. I am recognising that the gospel of John says specifically that Judas had a devil as seen as Jesus chose him.I merely recognise that there may be room for debate.

I recommend to look it again, what it accurately says.

What it says is John 6.70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” That near the start of his mission. But Luke says a devil entered into Judas just before the last supper, while John has the betrayal done even before then. You now say why it doesn't say what I say it says and what you think it says. Don't just tell me to go read it again. I knbow what it says. Do you?

...The resurrection was when the disciples received the power to heal and preach and understand just as Jesus did.

By what the Bible tells, his disciples did that already when he was still on earth.

Well that may be. Where does it actually say the disciples did that before the resurrection? I know that someone is reported to be casting out demons in Jesus' name and he wasn't even one of the 12, and that they couyldn't cast out a particular demon implies that they had done it at other times. Yet one could argue that Jesus enabled that when he was round, after resurrection they needed power of their own. But I suppose you'll demand to know where it says that, and I'll say when Jesus breathed his fish supper over them.

Besides none of that is relevant to my point the crucifixion and resurrection was part of God's plan and necessary, yes?

It was known that it will happen. But, I don't think there is any Biblical reason to think that forgiveness required it.

I think there is, in Paul; and it is certainly Church doctrine.

The old joke is "I thought that was metaphorical" To which we can add "I thought that was only when he was on earth.Now he is just looking down at whether I'm following his teachings, it doesn't apply"

If the text says "come and follow", how can you go to him, if the person is not around?

Why do you keep making the same arguments? You 'follow' Jesus by following his words and his church (whichever one you like or invent your own). Jesus being #no longer on earth' is no excuse for not doing what he said to do,

You may not accept the epistles as Authoritative, but they opine that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary to enable God to forgive. see 1 Peter and Hebrews.

1 Peter 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
Hebrews 9:28 (NIV)
"So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:12 NLT.
“But our High Priest (Jesus) offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.”

[1213]

Why do you keep making the same arguments? You 'follow' Jesus by following his words and his church...

And if his words say, come and follow me, how can you come to him, if he is not on earth? I think you make a ridiculous case in demanding something that can't be done at the moment.

That does not mean that people should not live as Jesus taught. It is just not possible to do all the things that were possible when he was on earth physically.

You may not accept the epistles as Authoritative, but they opine that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary to enable God to forgive. see 1 Peter and Hebrews.

1 Peter 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
Hebrews 9:28 (NIV)
"So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:12 NLT.
“But our High Priest (Jesus) offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.”

The idea that it was necessary for God to forgive is simply not true, because Jesus forgave sins before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

The scriptures you give don't say the death of Jesus was required for that. They only mean, Jesus died because of our sins and he used his life for our benefit, for that we could be forgiven. That is why he can be seen as a sacrifice, or sacrificing his life for us. It can be compared to a soldier who sacrifices his life by defending his nation.

[TRANSPONDER]

Why do you keep making the same arguments? You 'follow' Jesus by following his words and his church...

And if his words say, come and follow me, how can you come to him, if he is not on earth? I think you make a ridiculous case in demanding something that can't be done at the moment.

That does not mean that people should not live as Jesus taught. It is just not possible to do all the things that were possible when he was on earth physically.

You may not accept the epistles as Authoritative, but they opine that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary to enable God to forgive. see 1 Peter and Hebrews.

1 Peter 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
Hebrews 9:28 (NIV)
"So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10:12 NLT.
“But our High Priest (Jesus) offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.”

The idea that it was necessary for God to forgive is simply not true, because Jesus forgave sins before his death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

The scriptures you give don't say the death of Jesus was required for that. They only mean, Jesus died because of our sins and he used his life for our benefit, for that we could be forgiven. That is why he can be seen as a sacrifice, or sacrificing his life for us. It can be compared to a soldier who sacrifices his life by defending his nation.

Yes they, do, clearly. The crucifixion was the sacrifice for sins. No salvation (except for Jews and they would have to be intensely observant) without that. And I don't recall saying that God, not Jesus had to forgive sins, but arguably He does. Even if He will never disagree with Jesus, God is the one who forgives in the end. Or do you say not?

And you try to make the scripture jump through hoops. It says in the NT that Jesus was a sacrifice for sins. You are just Interpreting it to mean it was like any soldier stopping a bullet that is that much of a sacrifice. That is not at all like a specific death to enable forgiveness for everyone. Jesus only forgave those who interacted with him personally. The death and resurrection made a blanket forgiveness for everyone - if they believed in him.

Oddly though you said that believing In some divine personage wasn't what saved, but following the words, you now reverse and say that you can't follow the words even of someone not on earth like God.

If you can 'follow' God you can 'Follow Jesus, right? Please don't pretend they mean different things. And we seem to have slid off the topic onto your favorite dogma. If I remember rightly it was an aside of mind you insisted making a dogmatic deal about. I supppse I'll have to check back.

Yep it was a throwaway afterthought line and you had to make a doctrinal polemic about it.

(1) or they could IF God had designated Judas as the instrument of His Plan and (arguably) even knowingly the instrument. What a saint, to go down in history as the Axiomatic bad guy when he was the only one knowingly working with Jesus to save humanity from sin.
Jesus forgave sins before his death, and gave also the right to forgive also for his disciples. So, his death was not required to save people from sin.

In any case, as to topic, I find whether the Sanhedrin neded Judas as academic as to the doctrines about Jesus, since I don't beleive any on it.

But yes, we all know what the Bible says, but does it make sense?And if not why should we beleive it?

Yes, we have the motive, and the fear of a popular tumult, so it needed to be secret, which meant at night. But they were at a loss until Judas showed up? I don't think so. They couldn't have found out that Jesus was at Bethany or indeed at the house in the city? And they couldn't nab him indoors where lamplight and someone who'd watched him while preaching couldn't finger Jesus for less than thirty silver schwekels. And the detail that Judas went to them just makes the Christian hatchet- job of Judas look crude, improbable and poorly thought out, as well as contradictory as in just when this 'devil' took over Judas, which i supported with quotes or references and I don't think you responses to. No, in addition to all the other nonsensical and contradictory rubbish in NT and Old, this shambolic plot for why Judas sold Jesus out looks to melike it took minimaltime and creativity from the writers to dump on the Jews yet again.

[1213]

...The crucifixion was the sacrifice for sins. No salvation (except for Jews and they would have to be intensely observant) without that. And I don't recall saying that God, not Jesus had to forgive sins, but arguably He does. Even if He will never disagree with Jesus, God is the one who forgives in the end. Or do you say not?

The forgiveness is from God, because He has given the right for Jesus and his disciples to forgive.

And you try to make the scripture jump through hoops. It says in the NT that Jesus was a sacrifice for sins. You are just Interpreting it to mean it was like any soldier stopping a bullet that is that much of a sacrifice.

That is what it is, because forgiveness doesn't depends on it, as I have shown.

Oddly though you said that believing In some divine personage wasn't what saved, but following the words,...

Essentially it is God who saves, nothing else. And God saves those who are righteous.

But yes, we all know what the Bible says, but does it make sense?

It makes sense.

[TRANSPONDER]

...The crucifixion was the sacrifice for sins. No salvation (except for Jews and they would have to be intensely observant) without that. And I don't recall saying that God, not Jesus had to forgive sins, but arguably He does. Even if He will never disagree with Jesus, God is the one who forgives in the end. Or do you say not?

The forgiveness is from God, because He has given the right for Jesus and his disciples to forgive.

And you try to make the scripture jump through hoops. It says in the NT that Jesus was a sacrifice for sins. You are just Interpreting it to mean it was like any soldier stopping a bullet that is that much of a sacrifice.

That is what it is, because forgiveness doesn't depends on it, as I have shown.

Oddly though you said that believing In some divine personage wasn't what saved, but following the words,...

Essentially it is God who saves, nothing else. And God saves those who are righteous.

But yes, we all know what the Bible says, but does it make sense?

It makes sense.

But I have shown passages (admittedly Pauline) that shows that Jesus forgave sins for those with Faith (in just what isn't clear (1)while he was on earth, and you have said yourself that we can't'Follow' Jesus one he was no longer on earth, right? So it follows that there needs some mechanism for forgiveness after Jesus had left earth. That (the Bible tells us, and what is Christian doctrine) is what the one - off crucifixion -sacrifice was supposed to do.
Have you any argument that this is not the case? And we can do without finger -pointing accusations of my bias or not understanding or posting out of context passages on Faith as though it proved something. We need a persuasive case from you, not just denial

(1) since you won't leave this shibboleth be, let me ask you this; Did Jesus (in the Bible) find Faith in the Roman centurion, greater than is the Hebrews he had run into? Butb a Roman centurion did not believe in God or in God's commands. And before you ask, people did not serve in their own country in the Roman army.

[1213]

But I have shown passages (admittedly Pauline) that shows that Jesus forgave sins for those with Faith (in just what isn't clear (1)while he was on earth, and you have said yourself that we can't'Follow' Jesus one he was no longer on earth, right?

Why do you ignore the part, go to him? The scripture is not only speaking about following, but about that person goes to Jesus and follows. It is not just about following him, but going to him.

In many other issues person can follow Jesus teachings, which is not exactly the same as following him on earth.

So it follows that there needs some mechanism for forgiveness after Jesus had left earth.

And there is. Jesus gave his disciples right to forgive:

If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”
John 20:23

Disciples of Jesus can forgive sins similarly as Jesus forgave.

(1) since you won't leave this shibboleth be, let me ask you this; Did Jesus (in the Bible) find Faith in the Roman centurion, greater than is the Hebrews he had run into? But a Roman centurion did not believe in God or in God's commands.

Why do you think the centurion didn’t believe in God or in God’s commandments?

[TRANSPONDER]

But I have shown passages (admittedly Pauline) that shows that Jesus forgave sins for those with Faith (in just what isn't clear (1)while he was on earth, and you have said yourself that we can't'Follow' Jesus one he was no longer on earth, right?

Why do you ignore the part, go to him? The scripture is not only speaking about following, but about that person goes to Jesus and follows. It is not just about following him, but going to him.

In many other issues person can follow Jesus teachings, which is not exactly the same as following him on earth.

So it follows that there needs some mechanism for forgiveness after Jesus had left earth.

And there is. Jesus gave his disciples right to forgive:

If you forgive anyone’s sins, they have been forgiven them. If you retain anyone’s sins, they have been retained.”
John 20:23

Disciples of Jesus can forgive sins similarly as Jesus forgave.

(1) since you won't leave this shibboleth be, let me ask you this; Did Jesus (in the Bible) find Faith in the Roman centurion, greater than is the Hebrews he had run into? But a Roman centurion did not believe in God or in God's commands.

Why do you think the centurion didn’t believe in God or in God’s commandments?

Yes but you ignore when. AFTER Jesus' death when as you said before they could no longer follow him. Jesus had to pass the capacity to forgive sins onto them after the crucifixion, or what was the Holy Breath or Pentecost all about? The requirement was for Something to change so that fiorgiveness, grace and salvation was a thing after jesus had gone. The sacrifice for sin on the cross is what it needed and Paul pretty much says so. That is the rite that enables forgiveness for sins either through the disciples or through the faith of individuals.

Makes sense to me, even if you deny it, and it makes sense to mainstream Christianity, too.

I argue that any Centurion is going to be a Roman, or at least a warrior in the Roman auxiliary trying to get their citizenship after 25 years.

Roman soldiers do not serve in their own country, so there is no way a Centurion could have believed in the Jewish God, never mind Jesus, whone only reputation would have been an a healer.

It is utterly clear to me, that the Christian writers were doing anachronism (and not for the first and only time) to have a scenario that could not be until there was a decent sized Christian church. Luke tries to make sense of it by having a bunch of Jewish notables bustling along to tell Jesus what a great guy he is to the Jews (the claim he built a synagogue for them doesn't make sense, either) but that doesn't alter the fact that it is only as some kind of healer that this centurion could have Faith in Jesus, not as Son of God or a resurrected messiah. It is anachronistic, improbable, contradictory and makes No Sense.

To me (I don't know about anyone else) it is clear that the gospels are of Christian Gentile authorship or nothing in them makes any sense.