Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[alexxcJRO]

There's no moral high ground in terms of Human rights, when we're talking about two totalitarian style governments. The freedom of opinion that people are expressing here would not be allowed in Palestine. You could not say something against the Quran and get away with it. So if human rights is really the standard here, we shouldn't be supporting either side, unless there's a bias for one side, which seems to be the case.

Supporting the side that is being denied land to live on, is more basic to human rights than any other concerns.

No, you wouldn't get freedom of opinion in Palestine and that's fine. They want to live their way, and I support that. I also want to live my way, with freedom of opinion. If people stop taking each other's land, everyone can be reasonably happy.

People have taken land from each other since the beginning of human civilization.

Q: Is really a Zod like mentality a good mentality?

Q: Is committing unspeakable acts of evil(maybe even genocide) in the process of accomplishing the utopia "from the river to the sea" justified?

Committing unspeakable acts of evil(maybe even genocide) in the process to take land, preserve land is worthless for in the end borders will change, cultures will change, dissolve and ultimately evolve, metamorphose into a total different thing.

Coexistence is the key.

It's Israel trying to take all the land.

At some point, to avoid the perfect becoming the enemy of the good, maybe you do forgive people for land grabs, and just live and let live.

However, you do not do that as they are in the process of grabbing more land. Nor do you do that, when they have made a People homeless.

This is the difference between saying whites in America should give the entire North American continent back to the Native Americans (when the Native Americans are alive and well on their reservations, which is sub-ideal to say the least) and saying that we should stop taking their land, if we were in the process of invading the reservations and making them homeless.

And Israelites are morons like most humans. Not letting go of tribal mentality and superstitious religious belief.
Your basically making the Palestinians look like freedom fighters. They are not.

Both the people in power on the Palestinians sides(Hamas) and Israelites(the government and people in power)are evil, malevolent, stupid.
Both side are fueled by stupid, dangerous ideology. Both side would easily commit genocide if not for the International pressure.

We have things like “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” and “The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim” to the Hamas side.
We have things like “We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly”, “We will eliminate everything - they will regret it”, “They are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world”, “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.”, Israelites are special God chosen people.

And the innocent suffer, are manipulated and brainwashed.

If all people would understand we are all equal members of the same specie: Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Nobody is favored by any God, no population is more special or more superior.

No omni-perfect God would favor any population of humans at the expense of others.
An omni-perfect<-omni-benevolent, omniscient being cannot but love all equally or be ignorant to all equally because it does not have reasons to do otherwise and because it knows all, knows this too.

[Purple Knight]

Technically, No one has taken over all the land. They are trying to perhaps, and so are the Palestinians. That is their stated goal. While you may count only the amount of effort put into an action as being wrong, I'd even say that intentions, along with weaker efforts (and it's only weaker until they can get their hands on a stronger weapon) also count as wrong.

Think of it more simply. Johnny has Sally's bike. Sally has been trying to break into Johnny's garage and steal back her bike for a while. She has not gotten it.

Someone says, "Well, just like Johnny, she would take both bikes if she could," and "Two wrongs don't make a right, nothing justifies breaking into Johnny's garage."

All the rioting in modern day when there is injustice, and the general attitude is you do not sit there and accept injustice. If you are denied what is yours, and you have to break into a garage to get it, then you do that. You can call for letting the ruling party handle it when there is such a party, and it is fair and unbiased. If not all bets are off.

The shortcoming of your analogy is that Palestinians have not simply attempted to attack Israel, but have attacked, which has included targeting innocent civilians in the process. To borrow from your analogy, it would be like Sally trying steal her bike back, but in the process, Sally attacks Johnny's kids and wife until she gets it back. We can even say that Sally attempted to kill Johnny's family but lacked the tools to do it, but she's around the corner planning it and perhaps will be successful once her big brother, Iran, gives her the tools. And to make things more interesting, let's also say that Sally doesn't have a clean history herself since she is also known to steal bikes and engage in other crimes.

Yes, she has, all that time that Johnny has been holding her bike.

Is Sally's actions justified since her bike was stolen?! Of course, Johnny has done wrong, but can you understand why some would have trouble sympathizing with Sally under those conditions?

Yes, but I believe the trouble sympathising lies in Western privilege.

That we can say things like "two wrongs don't make a right" and "but, nothing justifies hurting somebody" is an example of Western privilege. We have a system that is fair, and even at the level of countries, when the Ukraine is attacked by Russia, everyone holds hands and denounces Russia. But because Israel has huge influence, they can land grab and this huge system we have in place to make sure everything is fair, is simply silent.

I didn't always entirely understand this. At one point I had to say the looters and rioters in America were wrong. They have killed people. So doesn't that make them just as bad as Derek Chauvin? No, because when justice is denied you, you have the right to do whatever is necessary to get it. If that's killing people, hostages, ransoms, families, it does not matter. Now, it might be a good thing to abdicate this right, but the only case I can think of where this would have good results is that you know the system that screwed you is fundamentally fair, but in your isolated case, it simply made an unavoidable mistake.

This is why having a fair system of arbitration is so important. Because, in a state of nature, where no such system exists or you're ruled by an unfair or corrupt one, you have the right to get justice for yourself by any means necessary. A state of nature is not desirable, but that's what the Palestinians have. Nobody is above them who will be fair to them.

I think your extended analogy is actually perfectly fair and I think most people would say, Johnny is the one bringing this hellscape down on his family for stealing. Give back Sally's bike. It's hers. Then if she continues, she is no longer plausibly acting in pursuit of justice and nobody who is on her side now, will have any reason to remain there. But we can't see that until she gets justice. Rights aren't petty. The pursuit of them is not petty. There are no small or insignificant ones.

Asking people to endure injustice and not stand up for their legitimate rights is wrong, wrong, wrong. You must notice that although I try to defend Christians when I can, because I see they are underrepresented here and often mobbed unfairly, I have absolutely zero tolerance for the beat-me-I'm-a-dog stuff. I have no apology for "turn the other cheek" - there can be no apology for something that is blatantly wrong. The fact that when you strike someone, in violation of their rights, you create a mini state of nature where the only person who can stand up for the victim's rights is the victim, is very basic to the human condition, and justice. The idea that the victim has a moral obligation to let it happen and not fight back, is the antithesis of morality. It is evil, plain and simple.

Another issue I have with your analogy is you're again not factoring in that the land of Israel is disputable. A case can be made that it did not belong only to the Arabs. The Jews have always existed there, although in different numbers throughout history.

Then it needs fair arbitration, not Israel using its massive worldly power to zip lips and continue to grab land. No case can be made that the Palestinians deserve zero land, and that's where the issue is headed if left alone.

[foolmefoolsyou]

The reason why we support Israel more than the Palestinians might be biblically-related, but I think it's also because Israel is closer to a democracy

You must be kidding,
Israel is a theocracy
a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
"His ambition is to lead a worldwide theocracy"
the commonwealth of Israel from the time of Moses until the election of Saul as king.
Which even today they are the same.
I will concede, if you are Jewish, your voice may be heard; maybe

Q: Is committing unspeakable acts of evil(maybe even genocide) in the process of accomplishing the utopia "from the river to the sea" justified?

No, but I must add, Israel is committing genocide as we speak.
NuntanYahoo is trying to exterminate the Palestinians NOW!!!!

If they say yes to that, then that is essentially supporting Hamas. Hamas uses any means necessary to kill Jews.

The Israelis have been murdering Palestinians for decades, that is why the Palestinians have built expansive tunnels, to protect their children. Tunnels, which I add are built on Palestinian land giving them a rightful right to do so.
Some strap bombs to themselves because the IDF just murdered their only child.
If I was in his sloes I would do the same.

regain territory vs. just killing people by any means

Thank you for admitting that the territory belongs to the Palestinian people.

(including killing babies, raping and killing women

The Israeli IDF sniper teams have been murdering Palestinian children for decades and decades.
I Googled “Israelis killing children”
About 537,000 results (0.39 seconds)
Search Results

These are the Palestinian children killed by Israel in 2016 | The ...
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/.. ... srael-2016

Thirty-five Palestinian children were killed by Israeli soldiers, police and armed civilians during the year, all but four of the deadly incidents ...
Invisible killings: Israel's daily toll of Palestinian children | The ...

Israel 'killed 25 Palestinian children' in three months
Twenty-five Palestinian children were killed in the last three months of 2015 during a wave of anti-Israeli attacks and the number detained was ...

One Palestinian child killed every 3 days by Israel for 13 years: statistics...
“The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1,” said a spokesman, “but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and

Israel has killed more than 3,000 children since 28 September 2000 (this is an outdated report)
Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia

12 yr old boy SHOT DEAD in front of your eyes
http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/sniper.html

Gaza girl said killed
IDF troops shot and killed an 8-year-old Palestinian girl who was on her way to school in a Gaza Strip refugee camp
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/494672.html

Photos of a 12 year old palestinian boy being shot by Israeli soldiers and the ambulance driver who tried to save him also being shot and killed.
http://www.palestine-net.com/misc/durra/

Three-year-old Rawan Abu Zeid, who took bullets in the neck and dead while buying candy with her friends.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2785.shtml

12-year old Hoda Darwish was hit in the head by a bullet fired Two 10 year-old school children were shot in the al-Omaria school run by UNRWA in Rafah, when an Israeli tank fired into their classroom.

Bullets fired from the tank flew through the classroom window, hitting Mahmoud Hamad in the neck and Hisham al Habil in the head. The boys had not even been sitting by the windows but in the middle of the room.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/index.html

An eight-year-old Palestinian girl shot dead by Israeli troops in the central Gaza Strip was killed while showing off her new school uniform to friends
http://tinyurl.com/99kh8zk
AgnosticBoy, this must make you a proud Israeli

[foolmefoolsyou]

My bet is AgnosticBoy is hiding from the truth because he has never faced reality before,

[foolmefoolsyou]

Illegal Settlements Map 2023
05.1.23
Map of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank and a blow-up map of East Jerusalem and its environs – 2023
The settlements have created a one-state reality in Israel, wherein Israelis have rights and Palestinians don´t. This oppressive system of control must be stopped. It´s time for Israel to end the occupation, it’s time for two states for two nations.
The new settlements map from Peace Now is a comprehensive and up-to-date tool for understanding the current situation of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. This map provides detailed information about the location and size of the settlements and illegal outposts, allowing for a clear and accurate portrayal of the current state of settlement expansion.
https://peacenow.org.il/en/%D9%8Dsettlements-map-2023

[foolmefoolsyou]

DaYahooo is committing genocide/ethnic cleansing right now.

DaYahooo’s goal is to exterminate the Palestinian people.

Aren’t you a little upset about this or are you smiling at the thought--?

just asking

[AgnosticBoy]

The shortcoming of your analogy is that Palestinians have not simply attempted to attack Israel, but have attacked, which has included targeting innocent civilians in the process. To borrow from your analogy, it would be like Sally trying steal her bike back, but in the process, Sally attacks Johnny's kids and wife until she gets it back. We can even say that Sally attempted to kill Johnny's family but lacked the tools to do it, but she's around the corner planning it and perhaps will be successful once her big brother, Iran, gives her the tools. And to make things more interesting, let's also say that Sally doesn't have a clean history herself since she is also known to steal bikes and engage in other crimes.

Yes, she has, all that time that Johnny has been holding her bike.

Here's a thought, just go after Johnny since he is the one that did wrong as opposed to also going after the innocent. Like I've said many times before, had Hamas only targeted the Israeli military, then I doubt there would've been much condemnation of their actions. Instead of just targeting the IDF, Hamas deliberately chose to go after civilians by raping them and killing their babies.

Is Sally's actions justified since her bike was stolen?! Of course, Johnny has done wrong, but can you understand why some would have trouble sympathizing with Sally under those conditions?

Yes, but I believe the trouble sympathising lies in Western privilege.

That we can say things like "two wrongs don't make a right" and "but, nothing justifies hurting somebody" is an example of Western privilege. We have a system that is fair, and even at the level of countries, when the Ukraine is attacked by Russia, everyone holds hands and denounces Russia. But because Israel has huge influence, they can land grab and this huge system we have in place to make sure everything is fair, is simply silent.

I disagree that it's "Western priviledge" but rather it's simply a respect for innocent life, the same way we expect Israel to make every effort to not harm civilians, which is something that I thought even the pro-Palestinian side was for - avoiding innocent life while killing the real threat.

I didn't always entirely understand this. At one point I had to say the looters and rioters in America were wrong. They have killed people. So doesn't that make them just as bad as Derek Chauvin? No, because when justice is denied you, you have the right to do whatever is necessary to get it. If that's killing people, hostages, ransoms, families, it does not matter. Now, it might be a good thing to abdicate this right, but the only case I can think of where this would have good results is that you know the system that screwed you is fundamentally fair, but in your isolated case, it simply made an unavoidable mistake.

The part in bold. Just think about that for a second. You're essentially supporting Hamas and then people wonder why pro-Palestinians are some times associated with supporting Hamas. Hamas thinks that justice has been denied to them, so they go out and carry out "justice" by any means.

Fortunately, your claim that you can carry out justice by any means is just your opinion and it is also a dangerous/extreme one. If I can't convince someone of that, then surely the law can because there is a place for people like Hamas that thinks executing and raping innocent people is "justice".

This is why having a fair system of arbitration is so important. Because, in a state of nature, where no such system exists or you're ruled by an unfair or corrupt one, you have the right to get justice for yourself by any means necessary. A state of nature is not desirable, but that's what the Palestinians have. Nobody is above them who will be fair to them.

Once again, you're offering your own personal standard and passing that off as if it's established. It aint, and fortunately so. If I was caught in an unfair system, such as what African Americans faced in the US during slavery days, then I'd protest, I'd fight through the legal system, I'd try to win over the hearts of the people. Just to think that Black people didn't have to go around killing Whites just to make progress, and yet here you are concluding as if violence is the only means, as if all other options were exhausted, or as if killing innocent people will help your cause.

Again, your view is unsupported opinion, and it's dangerous. This is precisely why we need a NON-partisan person handling these matters as opposed to having those who are biased and extreme and only want to serve their own self-interest, and even to the point of screwing over their own people. Your thinking will lead to a lot of Palestinians getting killed if you think that they should go ahead and go after Israel, and thinking that is the only means.

[otseng]

My bet is AgnosticBoy is hiding from the truth because he has never faced reality before,

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[foolmefoolsyou]

I apologize for my crude post.
As the Lord is my witness; this will not happen again

[Donray]

[Replying to foolmefoolsyou in post #131]

This turned into saying that Jews are terrorists, and that the Palestine Muslims are not terrorists. It was Palestine Muslims that attacked and killed Israel civilians and took the hostages. It is Muslins that will nor release civilian hostages. It is Palestine that would not continue a cease fire by releasing hostages. It is Palestine that will not allow the red cross to see ALL the hostages.

So I asked the questions tell me all the Jewish terror attacks compared to Muslim terror attacks. Tell me how many Jewish bombers went int o Gaza and blew themselves up in hopes of killing a lot of Muslims. Now tell me how many Muslims bomber did the same in Israel?

And it is you who wants to change the subject from Muslims terrorist that attacked Iseral to blaming Israel.

Tell me all the Jews that have said that want to eliminate all Palestine people? Tell me how many Muslims are saying to eliminate Iseal and all Jews? We have university presidents that think it OK to have demonstration chanting the elimination of Jews.