AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:39 am
It could be any conclusion. The rational process involves gathering evidence and using logic to arrive at a conclusion. Christianity is not built that way.
The rational process involves that, yes, but not the thing you are gathering evidence for the conclusion of. And Christianity is built that way, it just happens that over 2,000 years of corruption and abuse has made it appear otherwise to someone who isn't using the rational in their examination. For example,
Acts 17:11 and
1 John 4:1 and
2 Timothy 4:4.
AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:39 am
It's as if you have to accept the Bible as true first, and then you can apply logic and evidence to verify what you've already made up your mind about.
As a 27-year-old lifetime atheist 30 years ago that certainly isn't the way I approached it. Maybe I'm fortunate to have not only been skeptical by nature, but I approached the Bible as a loathed thing I needed to formerly and personally debunk. I knew the Bible was silly, superstitious nonsense because all of the examples given by its representatives. I was right about the people, I still think that way, even about myself, but I was dead wrong about the Bible itself. As an atheist then I decided I needed to be fairer in my examination. You can't be rational and objective if you are biased and unfair or uninformed. You can rationalize but that isn't being rational.
AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:39 am
I respect Jesus just as I respect a lot of the other great wisdom/religious teachers. But I can not be part of a system where I'm unable to question and/or reason about something before accepting it as true.
Good! As it should be. I, and the Bible itself as the scriptures above indicate, strongly advise you continue to do that. Outside of the debate arena from which we currently stand, in introducing the Bible to others, my objective, as a true believer of Jehovah God and the one he sent forth, Christ Jesus, is never to convert unbelievers. It's to educate interested ones so that they can make an informed decision
whether or not to pursue their interest. As Paul said, to plant the seed. The rest is up to the individual and God. It may be that the individual rejects God or God rejects the individual, but that isn't my concern. My concern is to educate as best I can so an informed decision can be made no matter the conclusion. It isn't about being right or wrong, it's an individual personal responsibility.
AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:39 am
If revelation can be shown to be reliable beyond just the idea that it would be accurate, assuming that it comes from God, only then I would hop on your ship.
No. You're not welcome on my ship. I'm the captain and sole passenger on my ship. If my ship sinks, you'll not go down with it. Only myself. And, you, likewise, will have your own ship. And it can be rough sailing and it can be lonely. Without God. But if you're looking for a party, it's best to stay on land. The gate going off to destruction is wide and cramped, the gate going off into everlasting life is narrow and seldom traveled. You will find all sorts of mirages; shimmering visions of utopian splendor and you may find yourself drawn to them only to find yourself in an illusion. That's fine, dust yourself off and head back to the ship. That's my advice. From personal experience.
AgnosticBoy wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 4:39 am
? That's a problem then. That limited revelation would not be enough for me to make a living on (in terms of having counsel, and not money-wise).
You aren't looking for the one true God, then, you're looking for a lawyer and accountant.
Yes. Wishful thinking. Are you familiar with the Latin term
Deus ex machina or
Deus vult? People make their own gods or make God in their image. Those people may get a return on their investment but it isn't truth. So, in some delusional way they think they have divine revelation, and they do in a sense, only the god is themselves or tradition, culture, spiritual compromise, social acceptance or challenge - it could be anything. A private jet, fleet of gold Rolls Royce cars, $700 haircuts, really nice suits, self-righteousness. You may look at those examples and think to yourself "I don't want that god" or you may think "I want that god." In a sense, I suppose, you get what you ask for. Some people think being a fake guru is the way to go and that wouldn't work unless there were a lot of people who are looking for a fake guru. They may be poor, but they give money. Taking money out of whatever truth you are looking for is a good, wise first step. Freely you receive and so freely give. If you have to pay for it, you're getting the fake.
The Bible is the only divine revelation you need for truth in that respect. When you read the Bible, it tells of very specific isolated events over a great period of time. Those events aren't or weren't everyday mundane occurrences, they always happened with a specific conclusion in mind. For example, Paul was bitten by a very poisonous snake with no harm. So, people wrongly take that to mean Christians are superheroes, or they rightly think, Christians aren't superheroes. Paul was protected by the holy spirit because he was faced with the extremely important task of establishing the early Christian congregation. Later, when that task had been completed enough for God's purpose, Paul likely died a horrible death for what he believed in. And he was honored and glad to have done so. Maybe - just maybe - he will be rewarded. Well, he had been, but maybe further rewarded.
There's something bigger than us. And them.
