Size of a Religion - or Cult

[boatsnguitars]

I have to say, this was the most remarkable, and unintentionally hillarious posts I have read in a long time.

Many religions and denominations take pride, even boast of how large their followers are in numbers and the rate at which they are growing. But the thread of truth that runs throughout the whole of the scriptures is that God has always worked through the minority and never through the majority. This teaches us that when people look at their large numbers and equate that with their reasoning of God working through them, well the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible which teach this truth, but my favorite is regarding the 400 prophets of Israel who were called to inquire of God whether king Ahab should go into battle and obtain victory or not. And since these 400 prophets were prophets of Israel, and Israel was recognized as the people of God, then surely these 400 prophets were true prophets of God, right? Especially since they all came to the same conclusion and spoke with one voice unto the king saying that God would surely give this king victory. Yet one one man is called to see what God had to say and he told the king that the king would die in battle and that these 400 prophets were false prophets.

But what's more, is that these 400 prophets truly believed that they were true children of God and that the one lone prophet wasn't. This is a tremendous warning to those who find comfort and assurance in the size of their religious group who claim the name of God. Anyone can read this account in 1 Kings 22.

What do you think about God always working through the minority? What do you think about those groups who firmly believe they are the people of God but are in fact not?

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I actually agree with what you’ve written.

Imho, many denominations are in for a rude awakening.

Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.

It's why I think religion damages the brain. Some people actually think this is a justification of why their beliefs may be true! It's patently absurd!

These people vote, possibly raise and teach our children, etc.

No doubt this was preceded by someone from a mega church, or the RCC saying that their sect was more popular - so, instead of simply agreeing, they've decided to use it as an Apologetic.

Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
It most certainly is, and I believe you posted a shedload of Biblequotes to prove it. Through Jesus, and through nothing else. Thus Only Christianity saves, nothing else.
...

I think it is only God who saves.

Of course, but only if one believes in Jesus - and correctly, too. Do you suppose God is going to save Muslims? They believe in Jesus, but not as what the Christian religion teaches about him.

Again this this depends on what saved means. I think it means sins are forgiven. And I think that is also for Muslims. However, forgiveness is not useful, if one continues in sin. This is why it is not useful to declare forgiveness, if one doesn't change his path from wrong to right. This doesn't mean that I think no Muslim can't be righteous. This means, if some Muslim is sinful, it can be forgiven. And when the sin is forgiven, he should reject it and not continue in sin, because forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin.

You and I both know what 'saved' means. It means that one gets an afterlife with Jesusgod. Give or take hellthreat. This depends, according to Paul, and I can pick supportive Biblequotes too - 'none come to the father but by me' - as well as you, on faith in Jesus as the risen messiah. Of course, sins are forgiven, because Jesus dying and being raised did not remove sin, but provided a loophole requiring Faith in Jesus, not doing Good.

You agree with me that sinning can lose Grace. Thank you. But doing good does not gain it. And if you think Muslims can also be saved without Faith in Jesus as raised from the dead and as son of God (they deny all that) then we don't need Jesus or Christianity, just doing Good in any religion or none. When you start inventing your own Dogma, pal of ours, you start to sink into a doctrinal quagmire. We could throw you a rope, but I know you wouldn't take it as the rope leads to Satan, devil of a doubt .

Still, I repeat, I appreciate the effort you put in, responding and contesting everything. Even JW doesn't battle us as hard as you do

[1213]

You and I both know what 'saved' means. It means that one gets an afterlife with Jesusgod.

Sorry, I believe what is said in the Bible, and by it, I think saved means, sins are forgiven. It doesn't necessary mean on will also get afterlife. Eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous.

[TRANSPONDER]

You and I both know what 'saved' means. It means that one gets an afterlife with Jesusgod.

Sorry, I believe what is said in the Bible, and by it, I think saved means, sins are forgiven. It doesn't necessary mean on will also get afterlife. Eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous.

I think you are fooling yourself. Faith in Jesus is what saves, not good deeds. As I said in another thread just now, if good deeds (which must be what you mean by Righteousness and also by just Judgement) saved, Christianity would not be needed, but the human moral codes that Christianity just borrowed because sinning could lose the salvation earned by Faith in Jesus as the risen Messiah.

There are a number of passages that make the point, but others that can be read to say that Faith makes one do good things and become Righteous, which is not the intent. Faith is what makes a person good, not deeds (aside James which rather excitingly is arguing with Paul and might really be an epistle of James, head of the Jewish church). Passages need to be put together and can be convoluted or vague. I think this makes the point:
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[1213]

....
There are a number of passages that make the point, but others that can be read to say that Faith makes one do good things and become Righteous, which is not the intent. Faith is what makes a person good, not deeds (aside James which rather excitingly is arguing with Paul and might really be an epistle of James, head of the Jewish church). Passages need to be put together and can be convoluted or vague. I think this makes the point:
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If faith is counted for righteousness, it is not the same as faith makes one righteous. Romans 4:5 just shows that person being faithful tells that the person is righteous. Person who is not righteous, would not be faithful.

[TRANSPONDER]

....
There are a number of passages that make the point, but others that can be read to say that Faith makes one do good things and become Righteous, which is not the intent. Faith is what makes a person good, not deeds (aside James which rather excitingly is arguing with Paul and might really be an epistle of James, head of the Jewish church). Passages need to be put together and can be convoluted or vague. I think this makes the point:
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If faith is counted for righteousness, it is not the same as faith makes one righteous. Romans 4:5 just shows that person being faithful tells that the person is righteous. Person who is not righteous, would not be faithful.

That's what I'm saying and what Paul says. Righteousness comes not from deeds but from Faith in God, as with Abraham. Though Paul switches this to Faith in Jesus. Paul is a bit tricky, you see and does argue logically or honestly but with an agenda, to get to where he wants - Faith in Jesus as the risen Messiah is what saves, not just Faith in God.

Your final point in back to front and not Biblical. If to be Righteous (through works/good deeds) was to be faithful, people could be faithful, even if they were Hindus. Knowledge of and Faith in God/Jesus is what makes people Righteous, not being good in their actions, as we are (Biblically) all sinners, not worthy of being saved, from Birth, because of that apple. This is Bible - based doctrine, and if you say otherwise, you have invented your own doctrine.

[Clownboat]

Your reasoning is exactly the same as someone that thinks there are numerous gods that can save. They are not justified just for thinking it.

Why they are not justified to think so?

Please re-read the bold.
A person can feel justified to think whatever they want. Just look at all the available god concept explanations available to us.
A person is not justified to call the earth flat for example, just for thinking it though. That is where you go off the track.

You think that animals spoke thousands of years ago, that a man lived in the belly of a fish for days, that dead bodies got out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem and that the sun appeared to stand still (the earth's rotation stopped) for an entire day.

You can feel justified to believe whatever you want for whatever reason you supply to yourself, but the idea that the earth can stop rotating for a day is not justified just because you 'think' it.

Dead bodies don't get out of their graves and walk the streets and the moon is not made of cheese. No matter what people 'think'. Sure, they can claim that a magic fairy told about the moon being made of cheese and 'feel' justified to 'think' it. Such thinking doesn't have anything to do with the moon not being made of cheese or that the earth cannot stop rotating though. Such beliefs are not justified, especially not for just thinking them.

[1213]

Your reasoning is exactly the same as someone that thinks there are numerous gods that can save. They are not justified just for thinking it.

Why they are not justified to think so?

Please re-read the bold....

Ok, sorry and thanks for correction. I don't think anything is justified just for someone thinking it.

[1213]

... Righteousness comes not from deeds but from Faith in God, as with Abraham...

No, in Biblical point of view, faith comes from righteousness. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions, which also faith is, and the actions tell that one is righteous.

[TRANSPONDER]

... Righteousness comes not from deeds but from Faith in God, as with Abraham...

No, in Biblical point of view, faith comes from righteousness. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions, which also faith is, and the actions tell that one is righteous.

We are going around in circles. And ignoring the Bible, too. Paul says plainly that Abraham believed in God, and that was accounted to him as Righteousness. It was nothing to do with actions so long as they didn't annoy God, who gave the Mosaic law to ensure they didn't. Faith not Works was alway what made for Righteousness.

As I said if Works was the touchstone, good people of any Faith could be saved and you wouldn't need religions, only morals.

You then claim that religions make for morals. No; Human philosophy backed up by law codes tell us what morals are and religion takes the credit. I know it claims that Hellthreats and like make people behave, but there has been little sign of that in the past or the present. Rather religious faith make them think they can get away with it by protesting Faith and some faked penitence (the Vatican even made it a buy and sell thing), never mind they may even think God approves their bad character.

You then make the wild leap from righteousness (Faith) to good works coming from Faith.

No. This is not what we get nor ever had, and Paul knew that well enough. In Romans he supposes that Jesusfaith will make everyone moral. In Cor. I he learns it doesn't and so he pleads with them to stop the orgies.

You don't even have a circular argument because you can't make the ends meet. Faith does not make for morals and Christians know this.

"I am not sinless but I am forgiven". Haven't you heard this before? Wasn't everyone forgiven? No, only if they had the Party card. You know this is so.

[Clownboat]

... Righteousness comes not from deeds but from Faith in God, as with Abraham...

No, in Biblical point of view, faith comes from righteousness. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions, which also faith is, and the actions tell that one is righteous.

Nope, from Biblical point of view, faith comes from the God of the Bible.
Romans 12:3
ESV
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

But you will not correct your thinking, will you?