Jesus is God - grasping equality

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV

Philippians 2:5-11
English Standard Version
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is a clear: fully God, fully man situation.

However, depending on your Christian persuasion, there are some questions for you:

How can Jesus be in the form of God but not be God?

How can Jesus be in the form of a man but not a man?

If Jesus is not God, are you really going to bow down to a not God creature?

But mainly question 2. If Jesus cannot grab equality with God why would it phrase it as if He could grab it? So could Jesus have grasped equality with God or not?

if Jesus could have grasped equality with God then he is equal to God. Which dialect of Christianity is going to argue that Jesus could have been equal to God but chose not to but He is not God?

Let's put it this way. Suppose there was Thor's hammer and only the ones who are worthy can pick it up. That means everyone that can pick it up, regardless of whether they do pick it up are equally worthy of holding the hammer.

If Jesus could not have grasped equality then why is that statement in the Bible?

It sure seems like the statement is there in the Bible to show that Jesus could have been equal to God but chose not to.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #10]

Yes look at the post of yours. Not on topic, not addressing the question I asked you.

Is rude to force forum members to scroll 5 inches to read one sentence.

Your posts are in the 'form of a post' but they aren't posts where you sincerely engaged with or care about others, the thread or the forum.

So I ask again, I ask the person inside you to respond.

Could Jesus have grasped equality with God or not?

No links, no nonsense, just your words on the question.

Please?

[Eloi]

In your opinion

Could Jesus grasp equality with God or could he not?

Even if Jesus had come up with the idea of becoming in the position of God, he could not have, because there is a certain authority that is exclusive to Jehovah and He does not share with anyone.

You can understand that matter by meditating on the idea that is contained in this other example:

Is. 14:13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to the heavens.
Above the stars of God I will lift up my throne,
And I will sit down on the mountain of meeting,
In the remotest parts of the north.
14 I will go up above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself resemble the Most High.’

Now, without spamming, answer: Do you think Jesus could have thought of something similar to what that passage describes?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Eloi in post #12]

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to, he could not ever be equal to God?

I don't think Is 14:13 is about Jesus. Jesus does not have that heart.

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #12]

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to, he could not ever be equal to God?

I don't think Is 14:13 is about Jesus. Jesus does not have that heart.

Is. 14:13,14 is not about Jesus ... but it seems to me that you want to accuse Jesus of thinking that way.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Eloi in post #12]

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to, he could not ever be equal to God?

I don't think Is 14:13 is about Jesus. Jesus does not have that heart.

Is. 14:13,14 is not about Jesus ... but it seems to me that you want to accuse Jesus of thinking that way.

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to grasp equality with God, he could not ever be equal to God?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #12]

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to, he could not ever be equal to God?

I don't think Is 14:13 is about Jesus. Jesus does not have that heart.

Is. 14:13,14 is not about Jesus ... but it seems to me that you want to accuse Jesus of thinking that way.

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to grasp equality with God, he could not ever be equal to God?

Just because someone can think of something, doesn't mean they can achieve it. Obviously, the possibility that he had thought of it existed, but neither did he think of it, nor would it have been possible for him to achieve it.

I already answered your question. Why don't you answer mine without spamming?
Do you think Jesus could have thought of something similar to what Is. 14:13,14 describes?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Eloi in post #16]

I did answer you. I don't think Jesus thought that.

OK if Jesus cannot grasp equality with God why does the verse imply he can?

[Eloi]

[Replying to Eloi in post #16]

I did answer you. I don't think Jesus thought that.

OK if Jesus cannot grasp equality with God why does the verse imply he can?

Because the possibility of him thinking that existed, but he didn't do it. Is. 14:13,14 shows that someone could foolishly believe that they have that possibility. Notice the final words:

Is. 14:14b "I will make myself resemble the Most High."

... isn't that exactly what we're talking about?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #10]

Yes look at the post of yours. Not on topic, not addressing the question I asked you.

My post most certianly was both on topic and responding to what you asked. You said ....

Please focus on the thread. Especially the grasping verse.

I focused on "the grasping" as resuested. Read again.

Please focus on the thread. Especially the grasping verse.

QUESTION: Can Philippians 2:5, 6 be used to support the trinity?

Philippians 2:5, 6 reads as follows in English:

ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

Was Paul saying here that Jesus considered equality with God to be something he should rightfully "grasp" (ie to take and cling to) OR was Paul's meaning that that Jesus knew he had no right to try and obtain it?

The phrase in verse 6, [ouch harpagmon hegesato: not - seize - (he) considered] is, it has to be admitted on the surface somewhat ambiguous. The Greek word translated "grasp" by the ESV is harpagmon ; about this word The Expositora's Greek Testament makes the following comment:

We cannot find any passage where [har·paʹzo] or any of its derivatives [including harpagmon] has the sense of holding in possession, retaining. It seems invariably to mean "seize/ snatch violently." (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.

A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (George Abbot Smith), states "there is certainly a presumption in favour of the active meaning here" since the apostle does not use the LXX form harpagma. Paul thus speaks of an act of seizing [...] - A-S 60

Interestingly 1969, a new French lectionary that was approved by the Holy See rendered Phil 2:6: Christ Jesus is God's image; but he did not choose to seize by force equality with God

NOTE: If he [Christ] refused to seize it [equality with God], it must be that he did not already possess it. stated The Catholic monthly magazine Itineraires, supplement January 1971. If Christ did not already possess equality with God he cannot *BE* God.


CONCLUSION Given the above Philippians evidently carries the active meaning of snatching (i.e., a usurpation). Being in the negative it conveys the idea that Jesus did not /never (ouch) consider (hegesato) snatching or seizing [harpagmon] equality. Obviously if Jesus rejected (would not consider) the notion it would be because he considered it (being equal with God) wrong. Thus Paul is affirming the fact that Jesus did not aspire to equality with God.








JW


Further reading : https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -26-7.html


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[JehovahsWitness]

So are you saying, no, Jesus could not even if he wanted to grasp equality with God, he could not ever be equal to God?

Jesus could attempt it ie Jesus could and grasp /STEAL that "equality" ; what did Satan do if not usurp that which belonged uniquely to God? That said, even Satan did not attempt equal power he attempted equal position (not the same thing). Paul did not explainin what sense Jesus refrained from a "stealing/grasping" but the point is surely that Jesus could not already had that potentially coverted position. Thus Jesus could not be Almighty God.

To illustrate: I would not even think of jumping off a high building and flying like bird. Why? Because I'm not a bird and would not attempt to do what a bird can do and because it would almost certainly result in my plummeting to my death.

Eloi put it well ....

Just because someone can think of something, doesn't mean they can achieve it. Obviously, the possibility that he had thought of it existed, but neither did he think of it, nor would it have been possible for him to achieve it.

So Jesus didn't even THINK of trying to be equal to God, not only because it would have been an impossibility but also because it would have set him on the road to his own death.




JW