How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe / Summary argument universe was created

[JoeMama]

When you speak of "dematerialization," are you not assuming the existence of the very thing that this entire forum is about, namely, the existence (on not) of a god that allows supernatural events to occur? In other words, aren't you employing the begging the question fallacy?

As stated at the outset:

The best theory would:
- explain the most features on the shroud
- not involve methods that have been scientifically ruled out
- have the least ad hoc proposals

I will also add a theory can involve a method that current science does not fully understand. Given that 200 years ago, people did not have the scientific knowledge to understand the shroud like we do now, it's not so far-fetched that 200 years from now, science will be advanced enough to understand something about the shroud that we currently do not know.

I'm assuming an explanation can involve a mechanism we do not currently fully understand. When Star Trek was written, teleportation was pure science fiction. However, now we are able to do quantum teleportation. Who knows if material teleportation might be possible many years in the future.

If you have a better theory that explains more features of the shroud than the cloth collapse theory, please present it with supporting evidence.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive ... ic-author/

[Diogenes]

Slice a body into atomic layers. Then teleport each atom row by row for each layer. The idea is similar to how cathode ray tube TVs work.

Sending 'atomic layers' atom by atom would not be 'dematerialistion' because each atom is material, consisting of matter and energy. So, even IF such a thing could be done, it would not be a supernatural process. Rather it would be a physical manipulation of matter by a technology not yet developed.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to otseng in post #2687

The imaging on the cloth only penetrated the body to reveal the teeth and finger bones and no further.

.....which fails to explain the absence of bone images such as kneecaps, scapular bones and coccyx. To account for those absences, you have to have different parts of the body conveniently----and inexplicably----dematerialize at different rates.

Your pile-on explanations seem to be making your claim increasingly complicated instead of simpler.

[JoeMama]

Slice a body into atomic layers. Then teleport each atom row by row for each layer. The idea is similar to how cathode ray tube TVs work.

Sending 'atomic layers' atom by atom would not be 'dematerialistion' because each atom is material, consisting of matter and energy. So, even IF such a thing could be done, it would not be a supernatural process. Rather it would be a physical manipulation of matter by a technology not yet developed.

Oliver, once physicists develop time-travel technology, you could travel back to that moment in time and space where the shroud is being wrapped around Jesus and then come back and report the results of your investigation to the forum.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
I'm assuming an explanation can involve a mechanism we do not currently fully understand. When Star Trek was written, teleportation was pure science fiction. However, now we are able to do quantum teleportation. Who knows if material teleportation might be possible many years in the future.

If you have a better theory that explains more features of the shroud than the cloth collapse theory, please present it with supporting evidence.

The fact that humans are, or would be, involved in the creation of teleportation technology would best be explained as a natural phenomenon, as opposed to some god being involved. (Where humans, a product of, and residing within nature, can only do what is natural.)

We simply have no means of confirming a god's involvement in anything, since we have no means of confirming a god's existence.

Considering all such as that, I'm wondering who teleported that y chromosome into a virgin mother.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #2695]

Namaskaram JoeyKnothead

Look inside and you will find something What is possible...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/

I like the book Look at the back text at the end of the book "Toward the Light - A divine Revelation in Our Time!" Is that not appealing...



Your friend forever

Waterfall

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #2695]

Namaskaram JoeyKnothead

Look inside and you will find something What is possible...

https://www.toward-the-light.net/

I like the book Look at the back text at the end of the book "Toward the Light - A divine Revelation in Our Time!" Is that not appealing...



Your friend forever

Waterfall

That's all friendly and all, but I'm not sure an advertisement's gonna sway my thinking too terribly much.

Is there something in particular you've got to tell?

[boatsnguitars]

So the artist added some pig blood to make it look real and dropped some? OK.

Actually, the off body image blood stains match exactly the wounds when the body is wrapped in the shroud. To accidentally drop blood that matches the wound of a wrapped body was be extremely unlikely.

Yes, but where are the smudges of fingerprints, handprints, etc? The shroud would be riddled with them.

Whose fingerprints are you referring to? Jesus? Again, I do not claim the imaging of the shroud can resolve to the scale of fingerprints.

So, the artist deliberately dropped blood where the wounds would have been. And this amazes you?

I'm talking about hand prints as they lathered Jesus up, then grabbed the cloth and wrapped him. It's hard not to smudge a painting, but here you'd be lifting the body, tugging the cloth, pushing it... Hand prints would be everywhere... Unless it was a painting...

BTW, I watched a portion of the video. Painful! What about load of motivated reasoning! It's horrible. I stopped when he said he was amazed that Photoshop can make a 2D image look 3D. He's a moron.

Also, look at how they wrapped the body. Where are the handprints, and how in the world was the image so uniform - like a painting? There were so many folds and overlaps in the fabric that if it was remotely like that, and there was some supernatural photo-effect, the image wouldn't have looked like a human being.

C'mon, man! JUst look at it! It's a Medieval painting.

Oh, and it's well known that some colors last longer or fade differently than others. A yellow may have a metal in it that changes over time to be darker, whereas a black may fade away completely. I literally have 30 paintings and drawings from high school and college that show this.

This is why these religious people can't be trusted. Not only do they have a financial reason to lie to you, they don't even understand the subject matter. It's Ken Ham all over again.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #2697]

Namaskaram JoeyKnothead

Is something missing in your life...

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/ ... ar-meaning

Maybe this will interest you...

https://isha.sadhguru.org/in/en/wisdom/ ... f-sadhguru

What is possible...



Your friend forever

Waterfall

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #2697]

Namaskaram JoeyKnothead

Is something missing in your life...

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/ ... ar-meaning

Maybe this will interest you...

https://isha.sadhguru.org/in/en/wisdom/ ... f-sadhguru

What is possible...



Your friend forever

Waterfall

I don't wade through videos hoping to find what someone's trying to sell.

Maybe if you just told me what you were selling, and how much it costs, we could get somewhere.