Question for Debate: Is good fairness, or is good freedom?
...The ultimate good, the overriding principle. Which is it?
If you allow people their freedom, they will do all sorts of nasty things to one another. If you bound that freedom by rights, they will find a way not to violate the rights and hurt the other person anyway.
But if you enforce fairness, a positive duty not to hurt people, to treat them equally, everyone becomes amazingly depressed. It's almost as if they want the chimp dominance structure, they want ways left open to strike at one another, and they don't want to be equal. But it's just as likely that they simply enjoy their freedom. Even the nastiest racist can be an example of this. Perhaps he hires the slightly less proficient white person Randy instead of the more adept Jamal because he expects that Randy shares interests with him. He can talk to randy about Nascar, duck hunting, fishing, and camping. Perhaps there was another white person who didn't like these things, and he didn't hire them either, and it's still (by the modern definition) racism. But it has grown out of the desire to be around people who are similar to him and share interests because that brings a little enjoyment into a dreary and obligation-ridden life as a manager.
So which of these things represents good? Because you can't have both. You can either force people to treat one another fairly, in which case they are sad, or you can let them have their freedom in which case they will use it to hurt one another, even if that's incidental.
What is Good: Fairness, or Freedom?
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Re: What is Good: Fairness, or Freedom?
Post #11Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:09 pmThat's a whole other can of worms. But let's say he attacked me with a knife. Let's say for the purposes of the question that there is enough evidence that he does want to murder me, whatever you think that threshold is. And if you don't believe in self-defence at all, because technically I can never prove he was going to attack me again, making it either revenge or assumption, I respect that a lot more than I respect, "Self-defence, buuuuuut..."
I don't think that you've ever been attacked or had to defend from such as a knife in your life...well that's what it looks like.
1st rule......... if you can, get away from from them.......get away!
2nd rule......... if you can't, and happened to have a gun, shout a warning, tell the attacker that you are armed and will shoot.
If you have to...... then you'll need to shoot.
But you need to show a court that the last thing you wanted to do was shooting anybody.
If you happen to dream about needing to shoot folks then that's kinda sad.
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Re: What is Good: Fairness, or Freedom?
Post #12When you say harassment laws are on the books, do you mean you agree with them? You will eventually be arrested for yelling at someone in their house 24/7. They will not be expected to move away or endure it.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:18 pmWell harassment laws are on the books. I believe if someone doesn't want to hear me they can leave, they have the freedom to leave my presence. If I restricted that freedom, to leave my presence, that would be me taking away their liberty.
If you do agree that's right, then you've conceded some part of your liberty ought to be restricted for the mere peace of mind of another. And then you've got a can of worms where lawmakers and enforcers have to parse when someone's peace of mind is disturbed enough to restrict the liberty of someone else.
That's fair. You're right that I've never been attacked with a knife. This means that I should be at least a little ashamed for positing the hypothetical and I should take a long, hard look at myself and why I thought it was acceptable to do so.oldbadger wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:18 amI don't think that you've ever been attacked or had to defend from such as a knife in your life...well that's what it looks like.
1st rule......... if you can, get away from from them.......get away!
2nd rule......... if you can't, and happened to have a gun, shout a warning, tell the attacker that you are armed and will shoot.
If you have to...... then you'll need to shoot.
But you need to show a court that the last thing you wanted to do was shooting anybody.
If you happen to dream about needing to shoot folks then that's kinda sad.
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Re: What is Good: Fairness, or Freedom?
Post #13Well speak more about the public forum then anything...Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:17 pmWhen you say harassment laws are on the books, do you mean you agree with them? You will eventually be arrested for yelling at someone in their house 24/7. They will not be expected to move away or endure it.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:18 pmWell harassment laws are on the books. I believe if someone doesn't want to hear me they can leave, they have the freedom to leave my presence. If I restricted that freedom, to leave my presence, that would be me taking away their liberty.
If you do agree that's right, then you've conceded some part of your liberty ought to be restricted for the mere peace of mind of another. And then you've got a can of worms where lawmakers and enforcers have to parse when someone's peace of mind is disturbed enough to restrict the liberty of someone else.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”
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Re: What is Good: Fairness, or Freedom?
Post #14Fair enough.Purple Knight wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:17 pm
That's fair. You're right that I've never been attacked with a knife. This means that I should be at least a little ashamed for positing the hypothetical and I should take a long, hard look at myself and why I thought it was acceptable to do so.