Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[POI]

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

If you ain't convinced that God exists, in general, then how can you be convinced that the Christian God exists, specifically.

Makes no sense.

Makes sense, being that I'm sure deists are lurking around... Or how about the ones who believe in another specific god? Or how about the ones, which adhere to an opposing Christian denomination --- (unless you already believe that all Christians are under the same "umbrella")?

But yeah, you can also present why the Christian god is the right god, if a god even exists. And once you do so, atheists can then plug in your argument to that demonstrated creation, when that portion is also demonstrated.

[Clownboat]

I think most remain in the religion (or lack thereof) into which they were born. Some never question what they have been taught and never ask questions about it. Some do question what they have been taught and reject everything never looking at the matter deeper. On another board there was an atheist who I often spoke with that said that he was in his 70's and stopped believing in God when he was 5 years old. But his replies to questions indicated that even his present concept of God was the same as it was when he was 5. I don't believe in the concept of God which I had when I was 5 either. To a degree I still did when I was an atheist at 17-18. My "discovering God in a blade of grass" did not convince me that Roman Catholicism was the answer. It was the first step. My beliefs were constantly changing. I most certainly did not go in with the ides that "these are my beliefs" not let me find a faith that agrees with them. I was on a search for the truth and went wherever it led me. As I searched I found more and more things which I accepted as truth. The greatest truth I found was in the message of love taught by Jesus. When I scoured the various Christian religions Roman Catholicism stood out as the MOST truthful. I am not talking about how some people who claim to be Catholics live their lives, especially some priests, but rather the truth in its teachings.

The chaos you refer to also puzzled me. Why is there chaos? Why is there evil? Why is there suffering?. The answer I found was in the question Why would God create (in whichever way He chose) us at all? Why is there something rather than nothing? The answer to me was love. By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God? Certainly we could learn awe, respect, and gratefulness, but they are not love. Christ said that the greatest love that a person can have is the willingness to die for another. That is what He did. But love like that takes a willingness, a decision. We had to learn how to love. We do that by the very things we spoke about.... pain, suffering, toil. chaos. Through or experience of them we first learn compassion and sympathy for others experiencing the same thing. This starts with our own social circle, but when we truly learn to care about others that circle is an ever-expanding one. Eventually we reach the point of selfless love of all. When we are at that point then we can perhaps join with He who IS love.

Bringing in love doesn't help you.
There is a god up there that love you so much, that it will send you to heaven for eternity for believing it died on a cross for your sins and then rose from the dead 3 days later. Keep in mind, it loves you so much that it will send you to an everlasting lake of fire if you are not able to believe the claim.

Love? You'll need to use another word, because I 'love' my children and know what actual love is.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Makes sense, being that I'm sure deists are lurking around...

Then deism should be enough, unless you need more confirmation than your own selfish mind is allowing you to have.

Or how about the ones who believe in another specific god? Or how about the ones, which adhere to an opposing Christian denomination --- (unless you already believe that all Christians are under the same "umbrella")?

Your religion should be a one stop shop for everything you need. Only if it isn't, would you attempt to venture out..to see what else is out there that is more worthwhile.

My religion (Christianity) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with Christ.

The fact that you are asking this question...says a lot.

But yeah, you can also present why the Christian god is the right god, if a god even exists. And once you do so, atheists can then plug in your argument to that demonstrated creation, when that portion is also demonstrated.

Been there, done that. The emphasis is always placed on why it is wrong, rather than why it is right.

[POI]

Then deism should be enough, unless you need more confirmation than your own selfish mind is allowing you to have.

How does being a deist get you to the Christian God?

(VM) Your religion should be a one stop shop for everything you need. Only if it isn't, would you attempt to venture out..to see what else is out there that is more worthwhile.

(POI) Many claim there's is... Does that mean:

1) they are right and you are wrong?
2) you are right and they are wrong?
3) you are both right?
4) you are both wrong?

Being that options 1) and 2) and 3) present the same set of overlapping and baseless claims, and can be demonstrated in the same sorts of ways, option 4) is most reasonable.

(VM) My religion (Christianity) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with Christ.

(POI) Please note what I stated above, about "overlapping and baseless" Now read the following:

"My religion (Scientology) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with (Xenu)."

(VM) Been there, done that. The emphasis is always placed on why it is wrong, rather than why it is right.

(POI) That's because the 'wrong' list exceeds the 'right' list.

[DaveD49]

I think most remain in the religion (or lack thereof) into which they were born. Some never question what they have been taught and never ask questions about it. Some do question what they have been taught and reject everything never looking at the matter deeper. On another board there was an atheist who I often spoke with that said that he was in his 70's and stopped believing in God when he was 5 years old. But his replies to questions indicated that even his present concept of God was the same as it was when he was 5. I don't believe in the concept of God which I had when I was 5 either. To a degree I still did when I was an atheist at 17-18. My "discovering God in a blade of grass" did not convince me that Roman Catholicism was the answer. It was the first step. My beliefs were constantly changing. I most certainly did not go in with the ides that "these are my beliefs" not let me find a faith that agrees with them. I was on a search for the truth and went wherever it led me. As I searched I found more and more things which I accepted as truth. The greatest truth I found was in the message of love taught by Jesus. When I scoured the various Christian religions Roman Catholicism stood out as the MOST truthful. I am not talking about how some people who claim to be Catholics live their lives, especially some priests, but rather the truth in its teachings.

The chaos you refer to also puzzled me. Why is there chaos? Why is there evil? Why is there suffering?. The answer I found was in the question Why would God create (in whichever way He chose) us at all? Why is there something rather than nothing? The answer to me was love. By its very nature love must be shared, hence His reason to create. Love is best when it is shared so, yes, He would want us to return that love. But how could we learn to love while in the presence of God? Certainly we could learn awe, respect, and gratefulness, but they are not love. Christ said that the greatest love that a person can have is the willingness to die for another. That is what He did. But love like that takes a willingness, a decision. We had to learn how to love. We do that by the very things we spoke about.... pain, suffering, toil. chaos. Through or experience of them we first learn compassion and sympathy for others experiencing the same thing. This starts with our own social circle, but when we truly learn to care about others that circle is an ever-expanding one. Eventually we reach the point of selfless love of all. When we are at that point then we can perhaps join with He who IS love.

Bringing in love doesn't help you.
There is a god up there that love you so much, that it will send you to heaven for eternity for believing it died on a cross for your sins and then rose from the dead 3 days later. Keep in mind, it loves you so much that it will send you to an everlasting lake of fire if you are not able to believe the claim.

Love? You'll need to use another word, because I 'love' my children and know what actual love is.

Sorry, but that is not my concept of God nor heaven or hell. I do not believe in a God who just rewards those who believes in Him but takes revenge against those who do not believe. His is a message of love that humans have twisted to fit their own desires to see those who offended them be punished. If a concept fits with the notion of love then, yes, that is from Him. If a concept does not fit the notion of love then it is not from Him. The concept of eternal punishment for sin does not fit the notion of love, therefore it is a man-made invention.

We are not so dissimilar. I too only learned the deepest levels of love with the birth of my daughter.

[We_Are_VENOM]

How does being a deist get you to the Christian God?

It doesn't. You missed the point. Moving along.

(VM) Your religion should be a one stop shop for everything you need. Only if it isn't, would you attempt to venture out..to see what else is out there that is more worthwhile.

(POI) Many claim there's is... Does that mean:

1) they are right and you are wrong?
2) you are right and they are wrong?
3) you are both right?
4) you are both wrong?

Christianity is right, and all other religions are wrong.

Being that options 1) and 2) and 3) present the same set of overlapping and baseless claims, and can be demonstrated in the same sorts of ways, option 4) is most reasonable.

(VM) My religion (Christianity) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with Christ.

(POI) Please note what I stated above, about "overlapping and baseless" Now read the following:

"My religion (Scientology) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with (Xenu)."

(VM) Been there, done that. The emphasis is always placed on why it is wrong, rather than why it is right.

(POI) That's because the 'wrong' list exceeds the 'right' list.

?

[POI]

How does being a deist get you to the Christian God?

It doesn't. You missed the point. Moving along.

(VM) Your religion should be a one stop shop for everything you need. Only if it isn't, would you attempt to venture out..to see what else is out there that is more worthwhile.

(POI) Many claim there's is... Does that mean:

1) they are right and you are wrong?
2) you are right and they are wrong?
3) you are both right?
4) you are both wrong?

Christianity is right, and all other religions are wrong.

Being that options 1) and 2) and 3) present the same set of overlapping and baseless claims, and can be demonstrated in the same sorts of ways, option 4) is most reasonable.

(VM) My religion (Christianity) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with Christ.

(POI) Please note what I stated above, about "overlapping and baseless" Now read the following:

"My religion (Scientology) is not lacking. I have everything I need in/with (Xenu)."

(VM) Been there, done that. The emphasis is always placed on why it is wrong, rather than why it is right.

(POI) That's because the 'wrong' list exceeds the 'right' list.

?

"You missed the point. Moving along."

[Diagoras]

I do not believe in a God who just rewards those who believes in Him but takes revenge against those who do not believe. His is a message of love that humans have twisted to fit their own desires to see those who offended them be punished. If a concept fits with the notion of love then, yes, that is from Him. If a concept does not fit the notion of love then it is not from Him. The concept of eternal punishment for sin does not fit the notion of love, therefore it is a man-made invention.

<bolding mine>

How is this not an example of a cherry-picking fallacy?

[Diagoras]

Christianity is right, and all other religions are wrong.

I’m curious as to how you’ve come to this conclusion.

Which religions have you examined?

What was ‘wrong’ with them? What test/fact-checking did they fail on?

And are all Christian denominations equally ‘right’?

On this forum, non-theists are sometimes accused of not fully understanding Christianity - particularly when a passage in the Bible may be interpreted literally or figuratively. Presumably, a proper examination of all other religions would be needed to reasonably claim that one understood them enough to pronounce them ‘wrong’.

[We_Are_VENOM]

I’m curious as to how you’ve come to this conclusion.

Easy. The argument based on the historicity of Jesus' Resurrection.

Which religions have you examined?

From what I know, no other religion can hold a candle to Christianity.

What was ‘wrong’ with them? What test/fact-checking did they fail on?

They fail the "being true" test.

And are all Christian denominations equally ‘right’?

Nope.

On this forum, non-theists are sometimes accused of not fully understanding Christianity - particularly when a passage in the Bible may be interpreted literally or figuratively. Presumably, a proper examination of all other religions would be needed to reasonably claim that one understood them enough to pronounce them ‘wrong’.

I agree. I have not examined all religions. But if Christianity is true (which I have reasons to believe it is), then all others must be false.