Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

[Rational Atheist]

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

[Miles]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #236]

I am unsure what this means. Could you explain it in other words?

Re: Design and purpose of the material universe.
To make it into a machine, rather than the raw materials it currently is.

.

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #240]

Did the rest of my post answer your question?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to William in post #242]

No. I still do not know what you are trying to ask. Can you just ask the question in full so I get what you are trying to ask me?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #242]

No. I still do not know what you are trying to ask. Can you just ask the question in full so I get what you are trying to ask me?

What purpose is this universe, that we have been grown within it?

From the evidence it appears to be, so that the raw material of the Earth can be mined and machines made as a result - machines which can foreseeably be shipped into the Galaxy, and eventually shape the stuff of the Galaxy into machinery.

Since the invention of the lathe, modern human beings have been able to shape the physical stuff into exact and purposeful items.

YHVH would have wanted that, because it exhibits rational minds at work - imaging YHVH according to your argument re will...and without having free will, we could not have achieved this, if I understand the philosophy you follow, correctly.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to William in post #242]

No. I still do not know what you are trying to ask. Can you just ask the question in full so I get what you are trying to ask me?

What purpose is this universe, that we have been grown within it?

From the evidence it appears to be, so that the raw material of the Earth can be mined and machines made as a result - machines which can foreseeably be shipped into the Galaxy, and eventually shape the stuff of the Galaxy into machinery.

Since the invention of the lathe, modern human beings have been able to shape the physical stuff into exact and purposeful items.

YHVH would have wanted that, because it exhibits rational minds at work - imaging YHVH according to your argument re will...and without having free will, we could not have achieved this, if I understand the philosophy you follow, correctly.

Not to nitpick, but I do not think we have been grown in the universe. That seems okay when it comes to the body, but the soul is a unique creation of God from no thing, our rational mind. The universe did not and cannot produce awareness.

With that said, the purpose of this universe is for us to come to God. There are many other things purposed within that ultimate goal, like having children. Not every choice we make is what God desires us to do.

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #245]

Not to nitpick, but I do not think we have been grown in the universe. That seems okay when it comes to the body, but the soul is a unique creation of YHVH from no thing, our rational mind. The universe did not and cannot produce awareness.

I did not say that the universe grew us. Human bodies are grown.

[Are you saying we are not the body, but the mind/consciousness/soul?]

What the universe produces for consciousness, is data of experience.

The purpose of this universe is for us to come to YHVH.

Unlikely. Perhaps the better way to say it, is "for us to come from a particular approach to YHVH."

Still, you would need to rationally explain why the universe is so vast, and why YHVH didn't just create a planet-type reality without all the rest of the untold amounts of matter that the universe actually is.

That does not seem to be a rational thing to do. It does not bode well with your argument about the rational mind of YHVH.

Indeed, we already have evidence that we are branching out into the solar system and have created machines which help us to see the vast environment we exist within...so it is likely more that we were put here by YHVH for the purpose of - at the very least - creating machine artifacts which could make use of the resource that this universe provides.

To learn the science and apply it.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #245]

Not to nitpick, but I do not think we have been grown in the universe. That seems okay when it comes to the body, but the soul is a unique creation of YHVH from no thing, our rational mind. The universe did not and cannot produce awareness.

I did not say that the universe grew us. Human bodies are grown.

[Are you saying we are not the body, but the mind/consciousness/soul?]

What the universe produces for consciousness, is data of experience.

The purpose of this universe is for us to come to YHVH.

Unlikely. Perhaps the better way to say it, is "for us to come from a particular approach to YHVH."

Still, you would need to rationally explain why the universe is so vast, and why YHVH didn't just create a planet-type reality without all the rest of the untold amounts of matter that the universe actually is.

That does not seem to be a rational thing to do. It does not bode well with your argument about the rational mind of YHVH.

Indeed, we already have evidence that we are branching out into the solar system and have created machines which help us to see the vast environment we exist within...so it is likely more that we were put here by YHVH for the purpose of - at the very least - creating machine artifacts which could make use of the resource that this universe provides.

To learn the science and apply it.

Yes, I am saying we are no the body. We possess bodies.

I believe in aliens. The universe is teaming with rational souls. Some Catholics are very against aliens, but I can defend it with the Catechism.

[William]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #247]

I am saying we are not the body. We possess bodies.

From another thread:

William: [3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase. {SOURCE}

Do you agree with this assessment?

I believe in aliens.

Aliens could explain the biblical stories. It is possible that the YHVH/Elohim of the bible are really extraterestrials...it would make more sense of the overall story...

The universe is teaming with rational souls.

Perhaps largely incorporeal...that would explain the lack of physical evidence...the Fermi Paradox...

Some Catholics are very against aliens, but I can defend it with the Catechism.

A lot of Christians find the idea of aliens threatening to their faith. I do not see why that should be the case...

[Atwine]

Free will is the right to choose. The outcome of the free choice made has no free will in it. Say you want a child. You can choose not to have the child. But when you and your wife agree to have the child you may not be in position to determine if it's a girl or a boy, lame or not, albino or not... So the free will is in the decision not in the outcome. When the free will is misused, then one ends up in prison. Ultimately there are general principles that guide free will like "do unto others what you would have done unto you". Our conscience is a guide to free will.

[Seek]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.