Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Regens Küchl
Scholar
Posts: 318
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:09 am

Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #1

Post by Regens Küchl »

The sacrosanct canonical four gospels have it in it that they avoid to narrate details about or have actual witnesses for their most miraculous and important point.

So we are to assume that in the dark cave Jesus body suddenly regained life and consciousness, stood up, unsheathed the shroud of turin leaving it right there as evidence of the miracle for the future vatican, with newfound superhuman powers opened his tomb careful not to wake up the roman guards and staying nearby did unknown things (garden work?) until he was mistaken for the gardener.

But like a three that falls over in the wood alone, no one witnessed that.
We are at last to assume that no human saw it or found it worth mentioning, for that is indicated by the whole new testament.

The apocryphal gospel of Peter is among the few, perhaps almost the only, (can anyone provide a list, please?) who narrates detailed important information (walking talking cross) about the actual resurrection and also has it witnessed by people.
"9. And in the night in which the Lord's day was drawing on, as the soldiers kept guard two by two in a watch, there was a great voice in the heaven; and they saw the heavens opened, and two men descend with a great light and approach the tomb. And the stone that was put at the door rolled of itself and made way in part; and the tomb was opened, and both the young men entered in.

10. When therefore those soldiers saw it, they awakened the centurion and the elders, for they too were close by keeping guard. And as they declared what things they had seen, again they saw three men come forth from the tomb, and two of them supporting one, and a cross following them. And the heads of the two reached to heaven, but the head of him who was led by them overpassed the heavens. And they heard a voice from the heavens, saying, You have preached to them that sleep. And a response was heard from the cross, Yes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter
Now It is really funny from every possible standpoint, believer, unbeliever, mythicist, historicist, whatever that we are told of not a one actual witness.

If it was a divine happening to save humanity, then why not let humans witness the most miraculous part of it ?

If it was invented than why not invent actual witnesses too ?

A Believer could say : "Because we have to believe out of faith in the resurrection!" - But this point is moot because we would also have to take it on faith even if the gospels mentioned actual witnesses.

A Mythicist could say : "Because it makes the better drama when witnesses only meet the already risen Jesus!" - But that point is moot beause we, that grew up with this fact in the gospels, are biased that way.

Questions for Debate 1) Why no actual witnesses ?

2) Why dismiss scriptures like the gospel of Peter when it includes actual witnesses and narrates important details.

3) And that is the little brother and second funny thing about the resurrection: The running gag in the gospels about old accquintances never recognicing the risen Jesus at first look.
Mary Magdalene Mistaking him for the gardener, Cleopas and another disciple walking with him to Emmaus without knowing, Apostle Thomas only recognicing him by his wounds . . . .

Why first no actual witnesses and than no recognicing? Dont this two facts together cry aloud : "Hoax"?

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10012
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1216 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #441

Post by Clownboat »

Clownboat wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 4:47 pm Actually, I still find it relevant.
Therefore, where else in history are resurrections accounts taken as credible?
There is an implication here....syllogism test..

1. There are no other resurrections accounts in HISTORY, that have been taken as credible.
Fail!
Resurrection or anastasis is the concept of coming back to life after death. In a number of religions, a dying-and-rising god is a deity which dies and is resurrected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection

Surely the religious take their resurrection accounts seriously. Your test therefore fails.
Failed logic aside, who is the big bad boss that gets to decide whether a resurrection account should be taken as credible, anyway?
Cart before the horse. Why would we take any resurrections claims, no matter the religous source as serious?
You might as well be asking, "who gets to decide whether unicorn claims should be taken as credible".
Just an all-around failure in logical thinking.
As you illustrated.
I came up with the knowledge that we in fact don't take historical resurrection accounts as being credible.
"We" who? Those who don't believe it?
No silly, just me, but I'm open to being shown credible claims about unicorns or resurrections and have been asking specifically for the latter.

Unless you can provide examples, historically, resurrection accounts are not taken as being credible. No fear though, either are unicorns, dragon or competing god concepts.
Wow. Sounds like you got it all figured out. I am now an atheist. You've convinced me.
I feel as though I do as well, but I'm open to being wrong which is the motivation for many of my questions.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #442

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:17 pm
Difflugia wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:42 pm
Because then we'd all know how to do it and it wouldn't be special anymore.
Yeah, I am gonna send the builders of a space shuttle to your house so that they can teach you how to build one.

And after the lesson is over, I'd like to see whether or not you will "know how to do it" (build one)...and will it be any less special.
This is nothing if not ridiculous!
Who are you to think yourself to be able to command NASA technicians around and even send them to some house you choose.
Besides that, I suspect that you do not even have Difflugias adress.
Further; We know Difflugia as an intelligent person. For sure it will be enough from the NASA technicians if they write Difflugia a short letter in whitch they write him how to build a spaceship.
Next week he will write you a card from the andromeda galaxis!
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

TRANSPONDER
Banned
Banned
Posts: 9237
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 3981 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #443

Post by TRANSPONDER »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:30 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:20 am Funny? Hilarious. Luke says they arrived to anoint the body, and so does Mark.
Well, now you have their reason, don't you?
But Matthew says they just went to look.
Reading comprehension.

Sure, Matthew "just" says they went to look, but Matthew doesn't say that they went "just to look".

You are reaching, sir.
John gives no reason.
Argument from silence.
There's a problem right there. Your reading comprehension is what requires attention. And tombs were always closed with a rock door. It would be like talking of an open grave just so it was convenient for people to peer in. So here the door had to be wished away, somehow. As you say. The women had to look inside. It wouldn't work if they arrived, found the tomb closed and couldn't get it open.
Well, they got in there, somehow.

See Gospel narratives for further details. :D
Yes. Contradictions in the story cast doubt on the story. Sequitur.

Well, yes, it could be claimed with regard to the resurrection of the body that could walk through the rock door. But nobody sees it. Not the (claimed) tomb guard. So If the body was still in the tomb, it could only escort the penitent thief to paradise in the Spirit, yes?
?
I'm not ignoring the point. It is the point that a new incorruptible body should have holes in so God had to fake a body that shouldn't have holes in just so that people knew it was Jesus. God could equally well have whisked the dead body away to India and faked a replica with the wounds in. When you have miracles, anything can be made to work.
?
But the point here is that the story is demonstrably concocted (because of the contradictions) so the question of how it worked doesn't arise.
.......
You demonstrate desperation. You may be trying to confuse but I'm not confused. Mark and Luke say they went there with spices. Matthew contradicts that. He says they went to look at the tomb. Of course he wouldn't say 'just to look' as that would imply that there could be another reason. It shows that for him that was the only reason. You are the one 'reaching'. Argument from silence is not a fallacy. For some reason, Bible apologists seem to wish it was.

"They got in there somehow"? Is that supposed to be some kind of explanation? I'm just pointing up the problem with the women going to anoint the body without thinking about not being able to get in. Which, when you come to think of it may explain why in this case, Matthew changed it. Moreover he explains how the tomb was opened, which is clearly not synoptic original material and nor is the tomb guard. Matthew was trying to deal with the plot - problem of the closed tomb. You may recall that you tried to argue that they were so upset that, while they were obtaining, pounding and bottling spices it never occurred to them that they wouldn't be able to get in. That didn't wash either.

"?"

O:)

I know. You are at a loss, you haven't a clue, you have nothing. Give it up, old pal.

P.s I suppose just to avoid misunderstanding, I should say that the empty tomb was the best bit - perhaps the only bit - of the resurrection that posed a serious question. The tomb was empty - what explanation could there be other than Jesus had risen?

Aside the one that Matthew gives 'The disciples stole the body, the 'fact' of the empty tomb is the best point of the story. I'm just pointing up plot holes that suggested an invented claim to give substance to the resurrection -claim. An empty tomb. The women going there. On the face of it, convincing, making it women. But less convincing them going there at all. Originally the synoptic version added that they were going to anoint the body, just as they added an angel explaining everything. i suggest that Matthew's contradiction is a deliberate change; which would explain why - unusually - Mark and Luke agree but Matthew doesn't. There is no postulated 'Q' doc or 'great omission'. But there is a reason for Matthew to change it - they would not be able to get in with their spices, so he just says they went to look, and invented an angel moving the stone. It just shows plot problems that provide an apologetic of 'The empty tomb was invented'..

I suggest is that doubters may now have a counter to the 'atheist -stumper' of "The empty Tomb" apologetic.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER on Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #444

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:09 am This is nothing if not ridiculous!
Who are you to think yourself to be able to command NASA technicians around and even send them to some house you choose.
Besides that, I suspect that you do not even have Difflugias adress.
Further; We know Difflugia as an intelligent person. For sure it will be enough from the NASA technicians if they write Difflugia a short letter in whitch they write him how to build a spaceship.
Next week he will write you a card from the andromeda galaxis!
Please tell me you were paid quite handsomely to miss the point THAT badly.

Because if you missed it that bad for free...
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #445

Post by The Nice Centurion »

Diogenes wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:37 am
Tcg wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:27 am I don't think so. I've known Christians who differentiate between the Jesus of history and the Jesus of faith. They accept that the two don't match and aren't bothered by that in the least. Their Christianity wouldn't skip a beat if the resurrection could be shown to not be literally true.
True, for some. For others it is of vital importance. Books like Strobel's are very important to them, but they demonstrate that for believers it isn't really evidence that is important, it is the pretense of evidence. They just need enough so they can feel like the belief is justified. For others, yes, it is about comfort and confirmation bias. It has become part of their lives, a core belief and and important, no, the KEY part of their social life and the focus of their mental life.

Strobel's book is horrible stuff. He writes as if he thinks he understands legal evidence. He does not have a clue. He is a journalist. But there is a HUGE market for this trash because it helps confirm what some want to believe. Christianity remains popular because it is a tribal brand.
I found another. From the 19th century. This things are around some time.
Simon Greenleaf
The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence

2019 Reprint of 1874 Edition. Full facsimile of the original edition, not reproduced with Optical Recognition software. How would the Gospels be regarded if they were submitted as evidence in a court of law? This fascinating question forms the basis for Simon Greenleaf's classic study of the rules of legal evidence as applied to the New Testament accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus. Applying the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice, Greenleaf demonstrates the validity of the Gospels as trustworthy and authoritative historical accounts in this forensic classic.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #446

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #441]

How about this..

I will show you how a person can rise from the dead (resurrect), once you show me how life cam arise from dead matter.

Deal?
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #447

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:16 am
The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:09 am This is nothing if not ridiculous!
Who are you to think yourself to be able to command NASA technicians around and even send them to some house you choose.
Besides that, I suspect that you do not even have Difflugias adress.
Further; We know Difflugia as an intelligent person. For sure it will be enough from the NASA technicians if they write Difflugia a short letter in whitch they write him how to build a spaceship.
Next week he will write you a card from the andromeda galaxis!
Please tell me you were paid quite handsomely to miss the point THAT badly.

Because if you missed it that bad for free...
I received the usual 30 silverlings from the Sanhedrin!
Why do you ask?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
The Nice Centurion
Guru
Posts: 1011
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:47 pm
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #448

Post by The Nice Centurion »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:22 am [Replying to Clownboat in post #441]

How about this..

I will show you how a person can rise from the dead (resurrect), once you show me how life cam arise from dead matter.

Deal?
It would seem more fair to me if both of you went right to work and show each other (via videophone) how you both do it at the same time!
Good idea, or not?
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10012
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1216 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #449

Post by Clownboat »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:22 am [Replying to Clownboat in post #441]

How about this..

I will show you how a person can rise from the dead (resurrect), once you show me how life cam arise from dead matter.

Deal?
Deal.
See an atom. Atoms are the building blocks of all things, including those that are considered to be alive.
Your turn, please be honorable.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3791
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 4089 times
Been thanked: 2434 times

Re: Why no witnesses for the actual resurrection ?

Post #450

Post by Difflugia »

The Nice Centurion wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 11:19 amI found another. From the 19th century. This things are around some time.
Simon Greenleaf
The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence
I love ancient apologetics books and this is one I'd never seen. Thanks.

It was apparently reasonably popular at the time. There are several pretty good scans at Internet Archive.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

Post Reply