The meaning of evidence

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Sherlock Holmes

The meaning of evidence

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This thread is to discuss the meaning of the term "evidence" particularly with respect to claims made by evolution advocates.

The reason I started this thread is that I often see - what I regard as - a conflation of consistent with and evidence for. If we are to make reasonable inferences and maintain objectivity and avoid making assumption unwittingly then the more precisely we define "evidence" the better I think.

The biggest risk here is to imply that some observation P is evidence for X and only X, rather than evidence for X and Y or Z. Unless we are on our guard we can informally exclude reasonable possibilities Y and Z and so on. Now the observation P might well be evidence for X and only X, but unless that is soundly established we simply can't assume that.

If we mistakenly regard P as evidence for X and only X then we fall into the trap of believing that P can only be observed if X was the cause.

This is exemplified by an analogy I recently put together that I think warrants its own thread, so here it is:


Consider this jigsaw

Image


None of the circles overlap, we can see this when we can see the totality of the jigsaw. But if we already believed for some reason or other, that they must overlap and we only had twenty random pieces and never see the rest, we could make up a jigsaw (theory) where we "fill in the blanks" so to speak and "show" that we sometimes have overlapping circles.

We'd be absolutely right too in saying the twenty pieces were consistent with an image that has overlapping circles, but we'd be dead wrong to say the twenty pieces are evidence of overlapping circles, because as we know, none of the circles actually do overlap.

So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #181

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:51 am Our disagreement on evolution is a symptom of a much deeper disagreement, I can see that, perhaps you cannot.
Oh I definitely agree. I tried to broach the issue with you earlier but you ignored the post. Perhaps now is a good time to try again?

If it turned out that the earth and the universe really were billions of years old and all life on earth shared a common evolutionary ancestry (humans included), would that affect your religious beliefs? If so, how? Would you have to change denominations? Or perhaps change religions altogether? Would that affect any of your relationships with friends and family?

If you're wondering......if it turned out that the earth and universe really were less than 10,000 years old, life on earth was the result of supernatural creation of original "kinds", and humans were separately created, I can't say it would affect my religious beliefs since I don't really have any. Professionally I would consider myself quite lucky to be working in biology during such a revolutionary period where we'd be rethinking a lot of what we thought we knew. It would be perhaps the most exciting time in the history of biology!
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #182

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:22 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:51 am Our disagreement on evolution is a symptom of a much deeper disagreement, I can see that, perhaps you cannot.
Oh I definitely agree. I tried to broach the issue with you earlier but you ignored the post. Perhaps now is a good time to try again?

If it turned out that the earth and the universe really were billions of years old and all life on earth shared a common evolutionary ancestry (humans included), would that affect your religious beliefs? If so, how? Would you have to change denominations? Or perhaps change religions altogether? Would that affect any of your relationships with friends and family?
I do not have a "denomination" I do not need one nor care for them, I have God's word and that is all I need, every Christian "denomination" has the same access to the same documents, as for organizations and clergy and so on, I care not, they are superfluous.

As for the earth's age I regard it as billions of years old myself but the evolution claims are simply unsound for the kinds of reasons I've espoused here.

If I find an apparent contradiction between God's word and my own experiences and understanding I review my understanding.

None of these things have any impact on friends or family, I suspect you have formed some notions of me that are not true. I do not "go to church" I do not "preach the gospel" I do not often engage in theological debates, sometimes but not often.

What we call "churches" and "denominations" are - I think - little more than social clubs often with a fair quantity of hypocrisy thrown in, people choose this or that "church" and tend to adopt or accept the practices espoused by that "church" for the most part these are superfluous embellishments that distract from God.

These "churches" often openly disagree even fight sometimes, they each have their own "statement of beliefs", well I too have a statement of beliefs and that is simply the Bible. I have no need for church authorities, leaders, councils or any of that, all of that is - IMHO - just human social constructs, places to hang out with others and so on.
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:22 pm If you're wondering......if it turned out that the earth and universe really were less than 10,000 years old, life on earth was the result of supernatural creation of original "kinds", and humans were separately created, I can't say it would affect my religious beliefs since I don't really have any. Professionally I would consider myself quite lucky to be working in biology during such a revolutionary period where we'd be rethinking a lot of what we thought we knew. It would be perhaps the most exciting time in the history of biology!
I try to steer clear of the word "religion" and "religious" for me these are a huge distraction and carry connotations similar to what I speak about above. Many atheists are turned off by religion and organized religions and churches and statements of beliefs and so on, well so am I, they are unhelpful additions, a social club, I am not the slightest bit "religious" God is not about being religious, God is real and is the cause of all we see, this is a deep reality, a profound aspect of reality and it is nothing like what you might understand by "religion".

The US is odd to me, I am form Britain and Christianity in Britain and Europe has deeply intellectual roots going back many many centuries, here in the US it is all fanatical and superficial and political.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #183

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:37 pm I do not have a "denomination" I do not need one nor care for them, I have God's word and that is all I need, every Christian "denomination" has the same access to the same documents, as for organizations and clergy and so on, I care not, they are superfluous.

As for the earth's age I regard it as billions of years old myself but the evolution claims are simply unsound for the kinds of reasons I've espoused here.
Okay.
If I find an apparent contradiction between God's word and my own experiences and understanding I review my understanding.
So if it turned out that all life on earth shares a common evolutionary ancestry (humans included), would that cause you to review your understanding of God's word?
None of these things have any impact on friends or family, I suspect you have formed some notions of me that are not true.
FYI, that's why I'm asking....so as to avoid making inaccurate assumptions.
I do not "go to church" I do not "preach the gospel" I do not often engage in theological debates, sometimes but not often.
Okay.
I try to steer clear of the word "religion" and "religious" for me these are a huge distraction and carry connotations similar to what I speak about above. Many atheists are turned off by religion and organized religions and churches and statements of beliefs and so on, well so am I, they are unhelpful additions, a social club, I am not the slightest bit "religious" God is not about being religious, God is real and is the cause of all we see, this is a deep reality, a profound aspect of reality and it is nothing like what you might understand by "religion".

The US is odd to me, I am form Britain and Christianity in Britain and Europe has deeply intellectual roots going back many many centuries, here in the US it is all fanatical and superficial and political.
Okay.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #184

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:52 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:37 pm I do not have a "denomination" I do not need one nor care for them, I have God's word and that is all I need, every Christian "denomination" has the same access to the same documents, as for organizations and clergy and so on, I care not, they are superfluous.

As for the earth's age I regard it as billions of years old myself but the evolution claims are simply unsound for the kinds of reasons I've espoused here.
Okay.
If I find an apparent contradiction between God's word and my own experiences and understanding I review my understanding.
So if it turned out that all life on earth shares a common evolutionary ancestry (humans included), would that cause you to review your understanding of God's word?
Yes, it wouldn't be the first time I've revised what I think scripture says. I once thought it was a crock of excrement, and told my Mother I'd never have the dumb book on my bookshelf - that attitude was entirely based on my experiences of "religions" and was nothing at all to do with the book or what was written in the book or its history.

I was prejudiced toward the Bible because I tarred it with the same brush I tarred "religion", huge error of logic but I was unable to see that back then.

The fact that the Bible far predates what we perceive as "Christianity" never crossed my mind, the fact that denomination after denomination after denomination had misappropriated the text never crossed my mind.
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:52 pm
None of these things have any impact on friends or family, I suspect you have formed some notions of me that are not true.
FYI, that's why I'm asking....so as to avoid making inaccurate assumptions.
I do not "go to church" I do not "preach the gospel" I do not often engage in theological debates, sometimes but not often.
Okay.
I try to steer clear of the word "religion" and "religious" for me these are a huge distraction and carry connotations similar to what I speak about above. Many atheists are turned off by religion and organized religions and churches and statements of beliefs and so on, well so am I, they are unhelpful additions, a social club, I am not the slightest bit "religious" God is not about being religious, God is real and is the cause of all we see, this is a deep reality, a profound aspect of reality and it is nothing like what you might understand by "religion".

The US is odd to me, I am form Britain and Christianity in Britain and Europe has deeply intellectual roots going back many many centuries, here in the US it is all fanatical and superficial and political.
Okay.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #185

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:27 pm Yes, it wouldn't be the first time I've revised what I think scripture says.
Can you provide a sense of the sort of revisions you'd have to undertake? For example, would it just be a matter of reading Genesis 1&2 a bit differently, or would it be a more extensive revision, relating to things like how death and sin entered the world, the need for Christ's sacrifice, how humans are "created in God's image", or how God interacts with his creation?

I've seen quite a few Christians say that if universal common ancestry is true, then the Bible cannot be the word of God and Christianity is false. Do you agree with that?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #186

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:27 pm Yes, it wouldn't be the first time I've revised what I think scripture says.
Can you provide a sense of the sort of revisions you'd have to undertake? For example, would it just be a matter of reading Genesis 1&2 a bit differently, or would it be a more extensive revision, relating to things like how death and sin entered the world, the need for Christ's sacrifice, how humans are "created in God's image", or how God interacts with his creation?

I've seen quite a few Christians say that if universal common ancestry is true, then the Bible cannot be the word of God and Christianity is false. Do you agree with that?
Frankly it wouldn't matter overly, my position today is that all that matters is that God manifest as a man and walked among people and shared incredible knowledge and was executed by people because he shared that knowledge, people created by God, people who's very existence is attributed to God.

There are many things in scripture that don't fully "make sense" to me and I no longer sweat over them. The information in the New Testament is the key, the opening of John for example is profound knowledge, some of it not crystal clear to any of us but for a host of reasons I do not dismiss it as I once did.

I think "religion" is a problem in the sense that it makes God harder to see, God is as real as the universe itself, more so, the source of that universe. God is not "religious", Christ was not "religious" much of what we see as pointless ritual is pointless ritual.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #187

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:47 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:27 pm Yes, it wouldn't be the first time I've revised what I think scripture says.
Can you provide a sense of the sort of revisions you'd have to undertake? For example, would it just be a matter of reading Genesis 1&2 a bit differently, or would it be a more extensive revision, relating to things like how death and sin entered the world, the need for Christ's sacrifice, how humans are "created in God's image", or how God interacts with his creation?

I've seen quite a few Christians say that if universal common ancestry is true, then the Bible cannot be the word of God and Christianity is false. Do you agree with that?
Frankly it wouldn't matter overly, my position today is that all that matters is that God manifest as a man and walked among people and shared incredible knowledge and was executed by people because he shared that knowledge, people created by God, people who's very existence is attributed to God.

There are many things in scripture that don't fully "make sense" to me and I no longer sweat over them. The information in the New Testament is the key, the opening of John for example is profound knowledge, some of it not crystal clear to any of us but for a host of reasons I do not dismiss it as I once did.

I think "religion" is a problem in the sense that it makes God harder to see, God is as real as the universe itself, more so, the source of that universe. God is not "religious", Christ was not "religious" much of what we see as pointless ritual is pointless ritual.
Okay. Earlier you said you would have to revise what you think scripture says (if UCA is true). What would that involve?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #188

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:06 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:47 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:27 pm Yes, it wouldn't be the first time I've revised what I think scripture says.
Can you provide a sense of the sort of revisions you'd have to undertake? For example, would it just be a matter of reading Genesis 1&2 a bit differently, or would it be a more extensive revision, relating to things like how death and sin entered the world, the need for Christ's sacrifice, how humans are "created in God's image", or how God interacts with his creation?

I've seen quite a few Christians say that if universal common ancestry is true, then the Bible cannot be the word of God and Christianity is false. Do you agree with that?
Frankly it wouldn't matter overly, my position today is that all that matters is that God manifest as a man and walked among people and shared incredible knowledge and was executed by people because he shared that knowledge, people created by God, people who's very existence is attributed to God.

There are many things in scripture that don't fully "make sense" to me and I no longer sweat over them. The information in the New Testament is the key, the opening of John for example is profound knowledge, some of it not crystal clear to any of us but for a host of reasons I do not dismiss it as I once did.

I think "religion" is a problem in the sense that it makes God harder to see, God is as real as the universe itself, more so, the source of that universe. God is not "religious", Christ was not "religious" much of what we see as pointless ritual is pointless ritual.
Okay. Earlier you said you would have to revise what you think scripture says (if UCA is true). What would that involve?
Probably Genesis the summary of the creation of life, that might have to be reviewed, the text might actually mean something different to what its commonly taken to mean.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #189

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:14 pm Probably Genesis the summary of the creation of life, that might have to be reviewed
For what?
the text might actually mean something different to what its commonly taken to mean.
Such as?

If humans share a common ancestry with other primates, would that affect your belief (assuming you hold to it) that we are created in the image of God?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #190

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:31 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:14 pm Probably Genesis the summary of the creation of life, that might have to be reviewed
For what?
the text might actually mean something different to what its commonly taken to mean.
Such as?

If humans share a common ancestry with other primates, would that affect your belief (assuming you hold to it) that we are created in the image of God?
You're asking me to put effort into something that I can only really do if motivated to do so, like for example becoming convinced we are all descended from primitive ancestral life. That's an effort to do realistically and I can't do it frivolously.

As for the image of God no, that doesn't seem to be impacted, like God we can create, like God we can produce joy or pain for others, we are like God in many ways and the exact mechanics of our origins doesn't alter that.

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