The meaning of evidence

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Sherlock Holmes

The meaning of evidence

Post #1

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

This thread is to discuss the meaning of the term "evidence" particularly with respect to claims made by evolution advocates.

The reason I started this thread is that I often see - what I regard as - a conflation of consistent with and evidence for. If we are to make reasonable inferences and maintain objectivity and avoid making assumption unwittingly then the more precisely we define "evidence" the better I think.

The biggest risk here is to imply that some observation P is evidence for X and only X, rather than evidence for X and Y or Z. Unless we are on our guard we can informally exclude reasonable possibilities Y and Z and so on. Now the observation P might well be evidence for X and only X, but unless that is soundly established we simply can't assume that.

If we mistakenly regard P as evidence for X and only X then we fall into the trap of believing that P can only be observed if X was the cause.

This is exemplified by an analogy I recently put together that I think warrants its own thread, so here it is:


Consider this jigsaw

Image


None of the circles overlap, we can see this when we can see the totality of the jigsaw. But if we already believed for some reason or other, that they must overlap and we only had twenty random pieces and never see the rest, we could make up a jigsaw (theory) where we "fill in the blanks" so to speak and "show" that we sometimes have overlapping circles.

We'd be absolutely right too in saying the twenty pieces were consistent with an image that has overlapping circles, but we'd be dead wrong to say the twenty pieces are evidence of overlapping circles, because as we know, none of the circles actually do overlap.

So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?

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Jose Fly
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #41

Post by Jose Fly »

I'm reminded of a creationist I encountered years ago who loved to post "quote mines" (quotes from scientists that are edited to make them seem as if they said the opposite of what they actually said), and each time I'd show the full quote in full context and characterize the mined/edited version as "dishonest", the creationist would cry and moan.....Ad hominem! Personal attack!

It was a pretty obvious defense mechanism, employed to distract from the original dishonesty (the mined quotes).

What Is Deflection? Psychology Explains This Defense Mechanism
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #42

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:14 pm I'm reminded of a creationist I encountered years ago who loved to post "quote mines" (quotes from scientists that are edited to make them seem as if they said the opposite of what they actually said), and each time I'd show the full quote in full context and characterize the mined/edited version as "dishonest", the creationist would cry and moan.....Ad hominem! Personal attack!

It was a pretty obvious defense mechanism, employed to distract from the original dishonesty (the mined quotes).

What Is Deflection? Psychology Explains This Defense Mechanism
All kinds of people "quote mine" not just those you refer to as "creationists". Of course all we have here is what we always have here, you paraphrasing a conversation.

I've explained to you what ad-hominem is you continue to do it though; whether in the case you cite, it was or was not, we can't know because all we have is your curtailed paraphrased and rather disparaging "recollection".

Finally you are back to amateur psychiatry with terms like "defense mechanism" and suspected motive of "distract from original dishonesty", all of course reliably and impartially diagnosed by your good self.

The record shows Jose that when out argued, trapped on the ropes, held to account or simply disagreed with, you resort to attacking or critiquing the opponent or their motives their mental capacity and so on, just as you are doing above.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #43

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:29 pm The record shows Jose that when out argued, trapped on the ropes, held to account or simply disagreed with, you resort to attacking or critiquing the opponent or their motives their mental capacity and so on, just as you are doing above.
So tell me SH.....why are you here in a debate forum?
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #44

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:36 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:29 pm The record shows Jose that when out argued, trapped on the ropes, held to account or simply disagreed with, you resort to attacking or critiquing the opponent or their motives their mental capacity and so on, just as you are doing above.
So tell me SH.....why are you here in a debate forum?
None of your business.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #45

Post by The Barbarian »

Whenever I hear about "gaps in the fossil record", I (having first learned biology in the early 1960s) immediately consider what was in evidence then, and what is in evidence now. When I started out, we lacked transitional forms for:

dinosaurs/birds
early hominids/modern humans
early anasids/turtles
wasps/ants
roaches/termites
ungulates/whales
fish/tetrapods
salamanders/frogs
reptiles/mammals
primitive plants/flowering plants
basal carnivores/canids
primitive procaviids/elephants

Today, we have all of those and many more. Basing one's argument on what is not yet known, is very faulty thinking.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #46

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:39 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:36 pm So tell me SH.....why are you here in a debate forum?
None of your business.
Okay....I literally laughed out loud at that (good thing I have the place to myself).

I'm here to engage in debates (because I enjoy debating and I like to write). So when I see someone make assertions about the fossil record (e.g., "exhibits discontinuity everywhere", "has no examples of gradual transitions") that I know are incorrect, I post information countering those assertions.

My expectation, because we're in a debate forum, is that the person who made the original assertion will either attempt to rebut the information or concede that the assertion was wrong. That's how debates work after all.

Clearly you and I are here for different reasons.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #47

Post by Jose Fly »

The Barbarian wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:47 pm Whenever I hear about "gaps in the fossil record", I (having first learned biology in the early 1960s) immediately consider what was in evidence then, and what is in evidence now. When I started out, we lacked transitional forms for:

dinosaurs/birds
early hominids/modern humans
early anasids/turtles
wasps/ants
roaches/termites
ungulates/whales
fish/tetrapods
salamanders/frogs
reptiles/mammals
primitive plants/flowering plants
basal carnivores/canids
primitive procaviids/elephants

Today, we have all of those and many more. Basing one's argument on what is not yet known, is very faulty thinking.
I believe it was Ken Miller who described the ID creationists' approach as "Seeing God in the darkness of our ignorance rather than in the light of our knowledge". I've always liked that.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #48

Post by Purple Knight »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:24 pm So do you agree or not, there's a difference between observations that are evidence for some hypothesis vs consistent with some hypothesis and we should always be careful and make this distinction clear in our arguments?
Not. I think consistent with is better used in the general type of situation you're outlining, but it's important to note that if some finding is consistent with some particular theory, that's sufficient as evidence, especially if it isn't consistent with any other proposed theory.

Evidence does not need to be proof.

If every last thing I discovered in some criminal investigation was consistent with Joe having done it, I might start to think Joe did it. It's abductive (and I may have multiple suspects) but this is how human minds work, and though abductive reasoning is weak, it's not so weak as to be a detraction from what it's trying to prove rather than a support of it.

I don't think Joe should be thrown in jail at this point, but I will probably start looking for some stronger evidence.

And yes, I will be looking for evidence that Joe (or one of my other suspects) did it.

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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #49

Post by otseng »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:41 pm Nope, I see that as a load of crap.
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Re: The meaning of evidence

Post #50

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:29 pm The record shows Jose that when out argued, trapped on the ropes, held to account or simply disagreed with, you resort to attacking or critiquing the opponent or their motives their mental capacity and so on, just as you are doing above.
Oh dear Zeus! If this isn't a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. You left out the ultimate creationist response and that is to pull up stakes and run away. You said you were doing that a few posts ago. Hmmm.
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