What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes. Luke 16:23 says that it is and in TD&D, the Bible is authoritative.

I can only wonder if you know what "begging the question" means.

Jesus gave an illustration that spoke of death/hades as a place of torment ---> How do you know that the torment (and not some other aspect of death/hades) applies to literal death/hades? ---> Because Jesus have an illustration that spoke of hades as a place of torment.

To prove that "the torment" is what Jesus was drawing on from literal death/hades, you need present evidence external to the premise. In short, what* outside of the illustration itself, can you present as evidence.


* scriptural /contextual /cultural or historical








WHAT IS THE QUESTION ?


POST #640

The million dollar question then is: what about literal real death/hades that was Jesus applying to the object in his illustration?

POST #645

The "hades of his parable" was a place of torment. He made no statement as to whether "literal Hades is a place of torment", what the properties of literal hades are and which, if any of those properties Jesus was alluding to, is the question under discussion.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HADES , GEHENNA, and ... HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED

[Difflugia]

Yes. Luke 16:23 says that it is and in TD&D, the Bible is authoritative.

I can only wonder if you know what "begging the question" means.

I was wondering the same about you.

Jesus gave an illustration that spoke of death/hades as a place of torment ---> How do you know that the torment applies to literal death/hades? ---> Because Jesus have an illustration that spoke of hades as a place of torment.

To prove that the torment (and not some other aspect of literal death/hades) is what Jesus was drawing on you need present evidence external to the premise. In short, what* outside of the illustration itself, can you present as evidence.

Whether or not you understand question begging, you apparently don't understand how to ask questions. The question above is not the same one you asked earlier.

The earlier challenge was just to show within the context of Luke that "literal Hades is a place of torment." I offered a statement recorded in Luke saying that a person in Hades is in torment. It's obvious, but it's not circular.

As an illustrative example (a parable, if you will), if you and I are standing in a quarry and you ask me to prove that there are rocks in the quarry, I might point to a rock. It's an obvious answer, but just because an answer is obvious doesn't mean that it's circular. You can then claim that my rock isn't actually a rock, but if you're right, my argument is still not circular, just mistaken. That claim that it's not a rock, though, is something you'd have to support, like by pointing out some un-rocklike feature of my rock. Unfortunately for this last part of this argument, you've had real trouble supporting your claims and backtracked to claim that you weren't making any claims in the first place. You've still, though, only asked me if there are rocks in the quarry, I've still just shown you a rock, and you're trying very hard to challenge the evidential power of my rock without having to undertake the difficult task of explaining why my rock is somehow not a rock.

Now, if you'd like to make the claim that Luke 16:23 doesn't apply to real Hades, then you're free to do so. Your revised question above seems to imply such, but given your propensity for word games about what you did or didn't claim, I'm not going to infer it for you. You should probably support such an assertion, though, because I already supported my own that it does apply to real Hades here, here, here, and here, which together answer your revised question above.

Edit: While I was replying, I missed that you added a revised revised question:

POST #640

The million dollar question then is: what about literal real death/hades that was Jesus applying to the object in his illustration?

That hell is a place of conscious torment.

POST #645

The "hades of his parable" was a place of torment. He made no statement as to whether "literal Hades is a place of torment", what the properties of literal hades are and which, if any of those properties Jesus was alluding to, is the question under discussion.

In the earlier posts quoted above, I supported that, leaving aside the one under discussion, the details of every other object in every other parable in the New Testament matches those of the literal objects in the real world. Without some really good reason, we should expect that the same is true for Lazarus and the rich man.

[Checkpoint]

[[url=./viewtopic.php?p=1027696#p1027696]Replying to Difflugia in post #653(and Jw in post #652)/url]]

The earlier challenge was just to show within the context of Luke that "literal Hades is a place of torment." I offered a statement recorded in Luke saying that a person in Hades is in torment. It's obvious, but it's not circular.

Jehovahs Witness wrote:

↑The "hades of his parable" was a place of torment. He made no statement as to whether "literal Hades is a place of torment", what the properties of literal hades are and which, if any of those properties Jesus was alluding to, is the question under discussion.

In the earlier posts quoted above, I supported that, leaving aside the one under discussion, the details of every other object in every other parable in the New Testament matches those of the literal objects in the real world. Without some really good reason, we should expect that the same is true for Lazarus and the rich man.

Greetings to each of you.

What I now write is not to enter into your discussion here. with one another.

Rather, it is only to make a specific point to both of you. in the hope that your response is positive, and that your consequent own research proves to be helpful in your exchanges.

My point is this:

Your recent posts have centered around a phrase that includes the words "place" and "torment".

I strongly suggest you carefully check their original meanings and usages, as found in biblical Greek.

There are a number of reliable bible sites that have such information. I use biblehub.com.

To check, click the verse number, then click "Interlinear"(near top, right of center), then click the number above the Greek word you want to investigate.

My best wishes to both of you.

[myth-one.com]

The Rich Man and Lazarus Parable:


There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31)

Those who believe the immortal soul myth will read these verses as if the event actually occurred. By that means, as soon as Lazarus and the beggar died, they were confronted with the Kingdom of Heaven and hell. This would confirm that man has an immortal part that must go somewhere immediately upon his physical death.

In actually, these verses comprise a parable or story. We can know this because Jesus is speaking in public and He always spoke to the public in parables so they would not understand:

And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mark 4:33-34)

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (Matthew 13:13)

This story did not actually occur. It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried:

The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (Luke 16:22)

We are told that the rich man was buried. The beggar died and was buried also because we are told he was carried into Abraham's bosom. Abraham has long ago died and been buried. Therefore, Abraham's bosom is the grave:

The field which Abraham purchased of the sons of Heth: there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife. (Genesis 25:10)

Then the parable advances far into the future after the millennium and the second resurrection. The rich man has been born again as a physical body as his name is not written in the Book of Life. He has been cast into the lake of fire and is about to suffer the second death. Seeing Lazarus and Abraham not in the fire, he screams for Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water so as to cool his tongue. Abraham responds that there is a great gulf between those born again as spirits and those born again as physical bodies and cast into the lake of fire. That great gulf is death! They cannot communicate in any way because those cast into the lake of fire quickly suffer their second death.

So how is Abraham able to communicate with the rich man? Abraham is on the opposite side of the gulf! I suppose in a parable one can say anything. But be assured, it did not actually happen. Soon the gulf separating the rich man from the saved will widen even more, as he dies the second death. The dead know not anything.

So this communication occurs before the rich man suffers the second death. Actually, it is while his death is in progress!

Helping him being impossible, the rich man then asks that Lazarus be sent to his father's house to warn his five brethren about what is happening to him, lest they suffer the second death also. He does this not knowing it is already too late. If he is in hell about to die, his five brethren have died on earth long ago. He has no sense of the time which has passed because he has been dead, or resting. Abraham now reverts back to the time of the rich man's life on earth when he states:

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (Luke 16:29)

But the rich man reasons that if Lazarus was sent from the dead, surely they would believe and repent. Abraham's response is:

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:31)

In actuality, Abraham can make that statement as a fact at that time, as that is exactly what happened. That is, between the death of Lazarus and the rich man and their resurrection, Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead, and many still did not believe and repent.

[JehovahsWitness]

...Abraham's bosom is the grave

... so before Abraham was born, did people die and go to Abrahams bosom?



JW

[Difflugia]

This story did not actually occur. It could not because most of it occurs in the future after the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection! The rich man and Lazarus have both died and been buried:

...

Then the parable advances far into the future after the millennium and the second resurrection.

...

If he is in hell about to die, his five brethren have died on earth long ago.

...

Abraham now reverts back to the time of the rich man's life on earth when he states:

...

That is, between the death of Lazarus and the rich man and their resurrection, Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead, and many still did not believe and repent.

The parable isn't that long, it isn't complicated, and every indication from the text itself is that the order of events is linear. If you have to break it up into disconnected pieces that take place thousands of years apart to square it with your theology, you may want to rethink your theology. This is the Bible, not Slaughterhouse Five.

[myth-one.com]

...Abraham's bosom is the grave

... so before Abraham was born, did people die and go to Abrahams bosom?

Dead people don't even know they are dead. They know absolutely nothing.

They don't "go" anywhere until they are resurrected.

Believers are resurrected at the Second Coming, and nonbelievers are resurrected a thousand years later.

At present, Abraham sleeps or rests in his grave located in the field which Abraham purchased from the sons of Heth.

That is where his bosom, or chest is.

========================================================

The parable isn't that long, it isn't complicated, and every indication from the text itself is that the order of events is linear. If you have to break it up into disconnected pieces that take place thousands of years apart to square it with your theology, you may want to rethink your theology. This is the Bible, not Slaughterhouse Five.

No rethinking required.

The Bible confirms that the Second Coming occurs about 6,000 years from mankind's creation. Believers are resurrected at that time.

Nonbelievers are resurrected and face judgment a thousand years after the Second Coming.

We are not quite there yet.

So the bulk of "The Rich Man and Lazarus Parable" has not yet occurred, and probable never will occur.

Humans cast into a lake of fire are not going to survive long enough to play the role of the rich man in the parable!

[JehovahsWitness]

...Abraham's bosom is the grave

Was the grave Abraham bosom before Abraham was born?

[myth-one.com]

...Abraham's bosom is the grave

Was the grave Abraham bosom before Abraham was born?

If the word "bosom" confuses you, substitute the word "side."

So that the angels carried the beggar to Abraham's side.

And Abraham's side is presently in his grave located in the field which Abraham purchased from the sons of Heth.

[theQuestion]

@

otseng:What is the Biblical view of hell?


William: Christian views on Hell @

Wiki:In Christian theology, Hell is the place or state into which, by God's definitive judgment, unrepentant sinners pass in the general judgment, or, as some Christians believe, immediately after death (particular judgment).[1] Its character is inferred from teaching in the biblical texts, some of which, interpreted literally, have given rise to the popular idea of Hell.[1] Theologians today generally see Hell as the logical consequence of using free will to reject union with God and, because God will not force conformity, not incompatible with God's justice and mercy.[

otseng: What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

William: What religions believe in hell? @

Quora:
Ancient Greek religion
Ancient Egyptian religion
Judaism - Sheol
Christianity - Hell
Islam - Jahannam
Buddhism - Naraka
Hinduism
Sikhism

William:Also large amounts of data can be found on experiences of hellish realities which Astral Travelers as well as OOBEers/NDEers have reported.

My own observations of the data led me to conclude that the places of torment are not created directly by GOD - but are the consequences of human imagination which Jesus has allowed to be experienced as real by those who imagine such, in a particular area of his abode (The Metaphysical Universe attached to our own physical Universe) and these act as holding cells for said individuals. They are part of what Jesus referred to as "Many Mansions/Rooms/Places".

Jesus: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

William: In the context above, Jesus is specifically speaking of heavenly places, rather than hellish, but the technique is the same in regard to 'preparation' The 'mansions' react like a mirror effect on the individuals belief systems.Most Christians believe that they will see Jesus in Heaven, and thus, that is what they are prepared for, and what they will experience.

It is a good way in which to provide true Justice for all those who require it, as far as I can tell.

____________________________________________________________________________

Alas, it is NOT CHRISTianity- but CHURCHianity that pulled the dogma from ancient pagan religions, maybe from one you referred to.
The simplest way to shatter the illusion is to go to the very beginning, as any detective would with a mystery:

The first man and woman who rebelled against their Maker.
Adam BECAME a soul (Gen 2:7), nothing immortal was put into him.
God stated the penalty is Death (Paul- "the penalty of sin is Death")- even spelling it out: RETURNING to the ground Adam was formed from. Not being kept alive so God and/or Satan coulkd burn them alive...forever.
There never was any warning to Abraham and Israel of a 'Hellfire'.
Neither with Jesus, who used Gehenna to illustrate death anmd destruction, and who pointed to a Day when the DEAD (not the LIVING) would be resurrected and judged.

Simple, clear and sensible- until the clergy step in!