Debating Christianity and Religion

Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:00 pm Question for debate: Are white people an evil race, evil by nature and not just nurture?

Common wisdom says that all white people are racist. Common wisdom also says that this is largely because of upbringing in a racist system. However, there are some grounds for disagreement with the latter.

Common wisdom (the book Being White, Being Good by Barbara Applebaum) also argues that whites can never fully escape racism. Whites can put on a show, be good allies, and even do some good things, but this will always be with the motivation of escaping the stigma of racism or showing the self as good for selfish gains.

Arguably this constitutes a race of entirely evil people; people who are evil by nature, not just nurture.

Is it time to admit that lions can't thrive on a vegan diet? Or that white people simply can't help being evil incarnate? Actually making this admission has some serious and negative consequences for critical race theory, which probably stops short of this admission for just this reason.

You can't blame a lion for eating meat, because that is its nature. If racism and oppression are truly the nature of white people and they can't be trained out of it, having the expectation of better behaviour is actually pretty cruel. Repeatedly insisting that whites must experience multiculture without any racist behaviour would then simply be setting them up for failure and punishment. It would be a lot like commanding your dog to sprout wings and fly, and then beating it when it failed to do so (though the analogy is not perfect). The cruelty of this position is compounded by the real harms whites inevitably inflict against innocent people when forced to live alongside them.

The analogy of the dog beaten for not sprouting wings fails because not sprouting wings hurts no one, whereas the punishment whites rightly should incur for their hate crimes is definitely deserved. The problem comes along when you realise that if you intentionally throw a hunting dog into a rabbit pen, it will kill the rabbits. And if you know this, and if you did this, either rubbing your hands together in glee anticipating punishing the dog, or perhaps far worse, legitimately expecting the dog to just do better, the dog is still to blame, but no longer solely.

Especially if there are other options.

Total isolation. Build the wall. Take away all ill-gotten land gains that have come to whites at the hands of white theft, give them at least some land... and build the wall. Cut off all contact. Any white person who thinks they can do better and actually rid themselves of their racism (they'd be the first to succeed) is welcome to live wherever they were before (though they must buy any land they "own" from its real owners if it was ever stolen), but with the expectation that they will do better. If they don't, that's on them. However, they should also be given the option to admit they can't do better and be deported to live where they can't continue to harm anyone.

Genocide. Arguably it's not evil to destroy evil. I don't agree with the notion that evil people have just got to be killed, however, it's a viable option, and less cruel than simply punishing people for what they can't help. I wouldn't own a lion and try to make it eat vegetables. It's a sad but true admission, but if there's a lion, and nothing but you for meat, you kill the lion. I just don't believe it needs to come to that in this case.

The admission that I can't be non-racist shouldn't be followed by further commitment to just try harder. I don't see how that's fair. It's the same sort of assumptive positivity that blames people when bad things happen to them because they must have caused them by negative thinking.

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:56 pmYour post is, to be blunt, utter garbage.

Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 12:15 am

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 3:56 pmYour post is, to be blunt, utter garbage.

Why? Because the answer to the debate question is no?

That's sad, because, as I point out, if the answer is yes, if whites really are evil and can't help being so, it pretty much breaks critical race theory. I try to be as anti-racist as possible, but critical race theory, as I see it, has one pretty glaring flaw.

If whites aren't evil by nature, why have exactly zero of them succeeded at eliminating their racism? You would almost think this was an inborn trait, not the result of nurture, and that's what has terrible consequences for critical race theory.

If whites are evil, and bound to hurt others, why is multiculture being pushed on them? The racist would probably see some phantom Jew here, rubbing his hands together in glee, anticipating punishing people for what they can't help, so he throws a rabbit in front of the wolf so he can punish the wolf. But I don't buy the nutcase conspiracies; I think the real motivation is far more damaging.

I seriously doubt you read any of it. But I'm of course not going to win any friends trying to fight for ignorant racists, even if there has been legitimate injustice against them. Thank you for reminding me of the scorpion. That'll hopefully be the last time I stick out my hand to creatures whose nature is to sting.

I have this perverse need to defend everyone if they were wronged, no matter how vile they are. I should try harder to ignore that particular urge.

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:13 amI find your last sentence in your reply above to be particularly dishonest. To be accurate, you have a perverse need to defend everyone if they were wronged EXCEPT white people.

Purple Knight wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:28 am

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:13 amI find your last sentence in your reply above to be particularly dishonest. To be accurate, you have a perverse need to defend everyone if they were wronged EXCEPT white people.

Believe it or not, I was defending white people by calling them possibly evil by nature, not nurture.

If whites are evil by nature, their cries for less multiculture should be heeded, not ignored. Critical Race Theory really oughtn't simultaneously preach that 1) no white person can be non-racist and 2) that the best solution to 1 is to all just live together and try to get along and expect whites to just try harder and it'll all somehow work out.

Because gosh darn it, we know you can't sprout wings and fly, but if you just try harder, those wings will come in eventually! Keep at it! (This... should sound silly to anyone. However, it's the cornerstone of the cult of positive thinking, and I believe it's worked its way into Critical Race Theory.)

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 1:42 amIf I may ask, why didn't you defend white people by stating that they AREN'T evil in the first place?

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 2:12 amSo you are willing to say that white people are evil because it harms critical race theory (CRT).... Sorry, that is a laughable claim.

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 2:12 amYou think whites are racist, plain and simple. Maybe you will find the guts to just come out and say it....

Kenisaw wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 2:12 amCRT is garbage no matter what. Even a cursory examination of CRT shows how illogical and contradictory it all is.

Purple Knight wrote: ↑Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:00 pm Question for debate: Are white people an evil race, evil by nature and not just nurture?

Common wisdom says that all white people are racist. Common wisdom also says that this is largely because of upbringing in a racist system. However, there are some grounds for disagreement with the latter.

Common wisdom (the book Being White, Being Good by Barbara Applebaum) also argues that whites can never fully escape racism. Whites can put on a show, be good allies, and even do some good things, but this will always be with the motivation of escaping the stigma of racism or showing the self as good for selfish gains.

Arguably this constitutes a race of entirely evil people; people who are evil by nature, not just nurture.

Is it time to admit that lions can't thrive on a vegan diet? Or that white people simply can't help being evil incarnate? Actually making this admission has some serious and negative consequences for critical race theory, which probably stops short of this admission for just this reason.

You can't blame a lion for eating meat, because that is its nature. If racism and oppression are truly the nature of white people and they can't be trained out of it, having the expectation of better behaviour is actually pretty cruel. Repeatedly insisting that whites must experience multiculture without any racist behaviour would then simply be setting them up for failure and punishment. It would be a lot like commanding your dog to sprout wings and fly, and then beating it when it failed to do so (though the analogy is not perfect). The cruelty of this position is compounded by the real harms whites inevitably inflict against innocent people when forced to live alongside them.

The analogy of the dog beaten for not sprouting wings fails because not sprouting wings hurts no one, whereas the punishment whites rightly should incur for their hate crimes is definitely deserved. The problem comes along when you realise that if you intentionally throw a hunting dog into a rabbit pen, it will kill the rabbits. And if you know this, and if you did this, either rubbing your hands together in glee anticipating punishing the dog, or perhaps far worse, legitimately expecting the dog to just do better, the dog is still to blame, but no longer solely.

Especially if there are other options.

Total isolation. Build the wall. Take away all ill-gotten land gains that have come to whites at the hands of white theft, give them at least some land... and build the wall. Cut off all contact. Any white person who thinks they can do better and actually rid themselves of their racism (they'd be the first to succeed) is welcome to live wherever they were before (though they must buy any land they "own" from its real owners if it was ever stolen), but with the expectation that they will do better. If they don't, that's on them. However, they should also be given the option to admit they can't do better and be deported to live where they can't continue to harm anyone.

Genocide. Arguably it's not evil to destroy evil. I don't agree with the notion that evil people have just got to be killed, however, it's a viable option, and less cruel than simply punishing people for what they can't help. I wouldn't own a lion and try to make it eat vegetables. It's a sad but true admission, but if there's a lion, and nothing but you for meat, you kill the lion. I just don't believe it needs to come to that in this case.

The admission that I can't be non-racist shouldn't be followed by further commitment to just try harder. I don't see how that's fair. It's the same sort of assumptive positivity that blames people when bad things happen to them because they must have caused them by negative thinking.