Santa, do Christians believe in him? If not, why not.

[dangerdan]

Ok, you're probably wondering what Santa has to do with Christianity? bear with me here....

The topic of Santa was brought up in the thread "Everyone should be agnostic?, and with it brought some interesting topics to do with belief systems, well worthy of a new thread.

Now why is this in a Christianity forum? I think it has some rich insights into Christian epistemology - why they believe in some things and not others. I was pondering putting this in the philosophy sub-forum, but I feel it’s more relating to pure Christian thought (though if moderators feel otherwise then that's ok).

So, let the debate begin! I do not intend the question to be demeaning or disrespectful, but merely a candid enquiry. So with no further ado - Do Christians believe in Santa? If not, why not.

[concerro]

If Santa is real then where did he come from?

Why would Santa(most likely a supernatural being) have a need/desire to have milk and cookies

Some stories tell of a Ms. Claus, and some dont. I hope your figure does not have contradicting stories being told.

If there is a Ms. Claus where did she come from and what does she do?

Why would a supernatural being need to have elves do all the work, surely if he can make reindeer fly and he can create a bag of holding(D&D item) he can just make toys appear, and how many elves does it take to make all these variety of toys? I also wonder where this toymaking factory is? It does not show up on any radar.

Where did the elves come from? Did he create them or are they an ancestor of modern man?

I could probably keep going, but I think I have proven my point.
Next you are going to tell me the tooth fairy is real

[dangerdan]

If Santa is real then where did he come from?

concerro... Are yooou a Christian?

I feel like a born again Santaist - thanks dangerdan!

This person wasn't trying to convince you that Santa is truely real at least I hope not. What he is pointing out here is that the same reasoning used to express your belief in jesus or god ro whatever can be used to explain a belief in santa as well.

Well put.

So are any Christian's so intellectually courageous as to say that Potwalloper’s 8 points show reasoning that is lacking credibility?

[potwalloper.]

If Santa is real then where did he come from?

Santa is and always has been - he did not "come" from anywhere

Why would Santa(most likely a supernatural being) have a need/desire to have milk and cookies

Milk and cookies is simply a human misinterpretation of Santa's divine purpose

Some stories tell of a Ms. Claus, and some dont. I hope your figure does not have contradicting stories being told.

If there is a Ms. Claus where did she come from and what does she do?

Santa created Ms Claus from one of his ribs

Why would a supernatural being need to have elves do all the work, surely if he can make reindeer fly and he can create a bag of holding(D&D item) he can just make toys appear, and how many elves does it take to make all these variety of toys? I also wonder where this toymaking factory is? It does not show up on any radar.

There are more things in Santaworld and Earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy

Where did the elves come from? Did he create them or are they an ancestor of modern man?

The elves are divine beings created by Santa

I could probably keep going, but I think I have proven my point.
Next you are going to tell me the tooth fairy is real

The tooth fairy? Well...

[Corvus]

Has anyone mentioned that Santa is an anagram of Satan?

Milk and cookies is simply a human misinterpretation of Santa's divine purpose

Milk and cookies is parellel to sacrificing a goat in the old testament. It propitiates the supernatural being, as it did the OT god, and atones for the sin of naughtiness through the act of a very minor sacrifice. To children, the sacrifice is a significant one, and since children are santa's elect, they are the important ones, adults being too corrupt to make the Nice List.

[concerro]

If Santa is real then where did he come from?

concerro... Are yooou a Christian?

I feel like a born again Santaist - thanks dangerdan!

This person wasn't trying to convince you that Santa is truely real at least I hope not. What he is pointing out here is that the same reasoning used to express your belief in jesus or god ro whatever can be used to explain a belief in santa as well.

Well put.

So are any Christian's so intellectually courageous as to say that Potwalloper’s 8 points show reasoning that is lacking credibility?

no but I am wanted to see if my fellow atheist and agnostics are as good at using what I sometimes consider (to put it nicely) nonlogical arguements to defend their creation as most christians are when it comes to theirs

[concerro]

If Santa is real then where did he come from?

Santa is and always has been - he did not "come" from anywhere

no way to prove you incorrect, 1 point for you

Why would Santa(most likely a supernatural being) have a need/desire to have milk and cookies

Milk and cookies is simply a human misinterpretation of Santa's divine purpose

So if Santa does not eat the milk and cookies what happens to them

Some stories tell of a Ms. Claus, and some dont. I hope your figure does not have contradicting stories being told.

If there is a Ms. Claus where did she come from and what does she do?

Santa created Ms Claus from one of his ribs

The purpose of ribs is to protect internal body organs. Why would a supernatural being need protection[/quote]

Why would a supernatural being need to have elves do all the work, surely if he can make reindeer fly and he can create a bag of holding(D&D item) he can just make toys appear, and how many elves does it take to make all these variety of toys? I also wonder where this toymaking factory is? It does not show up on any radar.

There are more things in Santaworld and Earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy

[/quote]
that does not explain anything

Where did the elves come from? Did he create them or are they an ancestor of modern man?

The elves are divine beings created by Santa

ok, that makes sense

I could probably keep going, but I think I have proven my point.
Next you are going to tell me the tooth fairy is real

The tooth fairy? Well...

Potwall and myself could probably go back and forth like this for days, and he could probably tell me he is a santa expert due to an invisible talking spider(another thing I could never disprove) and no one would win the debate. Potwall, you can have this one

[Arch]

If Santa is real then where did he come from?

Yes Santa has always existed, he has no beginning or no end.

Why would Santa(most likely a supernatural being) have a need/desire to have milk and cookies

Question not Santa and his ways, for as far as the heavens are above the earth so are his thoughts above ours.

Some stories tell of a Ms. Claus, and some dont. I hope your figure does not have contradicting stories being told.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the stories with out Mrs. Claus were just simple ommissions because of the parts of Santa's story being told she wasn't in those. Plus that is the error of the writers not Santa mistranslations and errors can't be contributed to Satan.

If there is a Ms. Claus where did she come from and what does she do?

Mrs. Claus is an angelical being designed to show the unity of man and women and how important it is the the development of mankind. She existed and was created before man and the earth.

Why would a supernatural being need to have elves do all the work, surely if he can make reindeer fly and he can create a bag of holding(D&D item) he can just make toys appear, and how many elves does it take to make all these variety of toys? I also wonder where this toymaking factory is? It does not show up on any radar.

The toymaking factory is on another realm of existence, not able to be seen by men since they have fallen from being pure beings. Santa uses the elves like angels and messengers. The elves making toys is really symbolic of the goodness of hard work.

Where did the elves come from? Did he create them or are they an ancestor of modern man?

Santa created the elves from nothingness, he made them before man even existed.

I could probably keep going, but I think I have proven my point.
Next you are going to tell me the tooth fairy is real

The toothfairy is no more than an angelical being, aiding in the development of children.

[Arch]

Milk and cookies is simply a human misinterpretation of Santa's divine purpose

So if Santa does not eat the milk and cookies what happens to them

The cookies are a sacrifice given to Santa for the trangression made by children throughout the year. They are transported automatically to little children who can't afford cookies for their enjoyment.

[potwalloper.]

While much of the debate over the existence of Santa has been largely tongue-in-cheek, it has, I believe been a valuable exercise.

Taking up a position where one suspends logic in order to defend an irrational concept is, I have found, surprisingly easy (and satisfying!), and has given me an insight into some of the reasons why those with religious belief rarely (if ever) change their views.

It was also interesting how most of the debate appears to have been from atheists and agnostics with very little input from Christians. Probably due to the fact that the arguments required to disprove Santa's existence as debated would be uncomfortably close to those that are used to show that God in real terms is also no more than a myth.

My guess is that Christians reading the thread have dismissed the subject as unimportant in order to reduce the cognitive dissonance that the debate created for them although I have no evidence for this.

One outcome for me has been a clear appreciation that in a debate of logic versus irrationality there will only ever be one winner - irrationality, as this approach encourages the use of imagination which is, of course, boundless. It also encourages one to discard any evidence that does not support your internal beliefs.

I feel the need to turn to Santa for guidance...

[otseng]

It was also interesting how most of the debate appears to have been from atheists and agnostics with very little input from Christians.

The thread does have some entertainment value, I grant that. But of having any epistemological value, I find little.

I believe we can all agree that using blind faith to support an argument is an unreasonable position. No matter what position one takes, using an appeal to faith does not do much to support one's position.

Probably due to the fact that the arguments required to disprove Santa's existence as debated would be uncomfortably close to those that are used to show that God in real terms is also no more than a myth.

I disagree. Several arguments have already been given against Santa's existence. Whereas the counterarguments have been an appeal to faith.

One outcome for me has been a clear appreciation that in a debate of logic versus irrationality there will only ever be one winner - irrationality, as this approach encourages the use of imagination which is, of course, boundless. It also encourages one to discard any evidence that does not support your internal beliefs.

Irrationality would not be the winner over rationality. I think we can safely assume that most all the participants here on this forum are rational. At least from what I've read so far, people have used some sort of logic to defend their positions. So, people are able to judge if an argument has some sort of rationality to it or not. If something is totally irrational, I doubt it would get much acceptance here on this forum.

I would like to comment that I hope that this exercise in the Santa discussion would encourage future discussions to rely on logic and reason on both sides of the aisle and not to base positions on blind faith.