Do you really care that I am going to hell?

[Cmass]

I don't think you really believe I will fry in Hell for being an Atheist. I don't think you really truly believe any of your non-believing family will either. I think deep down, you know it just isn't true.

If you do believe they will all fry and are not doing absolutely everything in your power to stop it, I would suggest that you are a very cold, dispassionate person. If you really believed your dearly beloved mother was going to burn in hell right next to Cmass and Charles Manson then you would stop at nothing to convince her to accept Jesus. You would not just gently encourage, you would be emotionally and perhaps even physically engaged on a daily and hourly basis. You most certainly would not be reading this silly OP right now. Not if you REALLY cared.

Think about it. If you saw your mother being beaten by someone on the street, would you stop to help save her? Would you put your own life at risk to keep her from drowning? Is there anything you would not do to help her? OK, what about eternal torture in hell? Doesn't this concern you? What about all the other people in your life who are going to hell? Doesn't this leave you feeling devastated? If I believed there was a hell and that so many people would be going - especially any of my friends or family - I would be in constant agony myself and would devote my life to stopping it. Or, I would be numb.

Does your knowledge that so many people will be in eternal torture bother you very much on a daily basis?

This OP came about after reading commentary by some of our more conservative Christian friends in here. Some seem to have no real problem with all us atheists burning in hell forever. Granted, there are probably some personal anger issues involved but still, I have always been uneasy with how casual many Christians are when it comes to discussing eternal damnation. Some get more upset over running over a kitty than the eternal torture of their best friend.

Nonetheless, I give most the benefit of the doubt: I don't think they are really that cold. I just don't think they really believe as much in the hell concept as they report.

[Biker]

As all the freethinkers stumble blindly along tripping over the obvious ignoring the unignorable acting like the see no evil hear no evil speak no evil darwinian monkey man. Selectively misinterpreting, misunderstanding according to their rationalist, naturalist, priori self imposed box!
Joel 2:28 English word "dream" is translated from the Hebrew-Aramaic word halom.
Revelatory dream in which God conveys information to mankind. Of which I enjoy often. Being a believer and follower and disciple and and servant and bond slave of the Most High God. God speaks to me in dreams and gives me understanding of His Revelatory dreams to me.
You are being spoken to by the living God also. Your rebellion blinds you!
He is speaking, your not listening!
Your ignorance deafens you!

Biker

Are you saying all our dreams are messages from God now? Even when we have scientific fact explaining to you what Dreams are and come from as well as how they can be portrayed?


I have no rebellion, If God would speak to me, i would listen, so why does he not speak to me? You seem to make the ludricous falacy to say that If i dont hear him, im "rebelling" against him, erh, how would that work? Everyone not agreeing with oyu and cant see it, is REBELLING, wow.

Are you saying all our dreams are messages from God now?

No!

Even when we have scientific fact

You have scientific opinion! I'm speaking of the revelatory aspect of dreams, science is not!

If God would speak to me, i would listen, so why does He not speak to me?

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27) Are you one of His "sheep"?

Everyone not agreeing with oyu and cant see it, is REBELLING, wow.

No! Read this: "they gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in MY Father's name, these bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.'" (John 10:24-28)
Simple, His "sheep" get revelation!
Are you one of His "sheep".
He, in His grace and mercy and kindness is trying to speak to you!
Are you listening?

Biker

[Biker]

I don't think you really believe I will fry in Hell for being an Atheist. I don't think you really truly believe any of your non-believing family will either. I think deep down, you know it just isn't true.

If you do believe they will all fry and are not doing absolutely everything in your power to stop it, I would suggest that you are a very cold, dispassionate person. If you really believed your dearly beloved mother was going to burn in hell right next to Cmass and Charles Manson then you would stop at nothing to convince her to accept Jesus. You would not just gently encourage, you would be emotionally and perhaps even physically engaged on a daily and hourly basis. You most certainly would not be reading this silly OP right now. Not if you REALLY cared.

Think about it. If you saw your mother being beaten by someone on the street, would you stop to help save her? Would you put your own life at risk to keep her from drowning? Is there anything you would not do to help her? OK, what about eternal torture in hell? Doesn't this concern you? What about all the other people in your life who are going to hell? Doesn't this leave you feeling devastated? If I believed there was a hell and that so many people would be going - especially any of my friends or family - I would be in constant agony myself and would devote my life to stopping it. Or, I would be numb.

Does your knowledge that so many people will be in eternal torture bother you very much on a daily basis?

This OP came about after reading commentary by some of our more conservative Christian friends in here. Some seem to have no real problem with all us atheists burning in hell forever. Granted, there are probably some personal anger issues involved but still, I have always been uneasy with how casual many Christians are when it comes to discussing eternal damnation. Some get more upset over running over a kitty than the eternal torture of their best friend.

Nonetheless, I give most the benefit of the doubt: I don't think they are really that cold. I just don't think they really believe as much in the hell concept as they report.

Do you really care that I am going to hell?

Incredibly wrong question!
Unbelievers ask the wrong questions!
Do YOU really care if YOU are going to hell?

Biker

[McCulloch]

Do you really care that I am going to hell?

Incredibly wrong question!
Unbelievers ask the wrong questions!
Do YOU really care if YOU are going to hell?

That is an incredibly irrelevant and pointless question. I cannot think of a reason why anyone would not care if they were going to hell, given that they believed that there was any chance at all that the place of eternal torment existed, can you?

So the relevant question is, do you or I really think that hell exists. In order to get a handle on that question, cmass took a look at the typical behaviour of those who claim to believe that hell exists and found that their behaviour is inconsistent with their stated belief. The natural conclusion is that most of the people who say that they believe in hell, really do not.

I don't think that I will go to hell (except perhaps in my dreams) after I die, since I don't think that hell exists. Now if I had some evidence that hell existed, I might revise that view. But the mere opinions of those who's behaviours belie their stated beliefs does not count as evidence.

[Zzyzx]

Being a believer and follower and disciple and and servant and bond slave of the Most High God. God speaks to me in dreams and gives me understanding of His Revelatory dreams to me.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27) Are you one of His "sheep"?

Simple, His "sheep" get revelation! Are you one of His "sheep". He, in His grace and mercy and kindness is trying to speak to you! Are you listening?

This makes clear exactly where you are coming from. Thank you for the “revelation” and for the guidance in what value to assign to what you write, if that were needed.

Is "bond slave of the most high god" something from Ekklesia sect or cult?

[Cmass]

Biker wrote:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27) Are you one of His "sheep"?
Simple, His "sheep" get revelation! Are you one of His "sheep". He, in His grace and mercy and kindness is trying to speak to you! Are you listening?

Perhaps you could listen to the sheep for some further revelation? "Bahhh bahhh. God says invade Iraq....bahhh bahhhh ....and God gays should be persecuted bahhh bahhh."
But no, I do not fancy myself a sheep. And neither you nor I have any evidence sheep are receiving revelations from God. They actually appear to be rather dull animals that follow the flock around. Ironically, people often use a flock of sheep as an analogy for people who blindly follow without question or critical thought. Hmmm..

If God in His kindness is "trying" to speak to me, He is not doing a very good job because I don't hear Him. I am most certainly listening. Why would I NOT listen to Him? Why would it be in my best interest to NOT hear him? This makes no sense whatsoever. As an all powerful God He can most certainly find a way to get in touch with me. After all, even YOU could get in touch with me personally within about 5 minutes of research including my address, phone number and what I look like. God seems rather incapable of this.

I'll tell you what, I'll stop typing for and listen very quietly...........
Hmmmm....
Still listening....
Sorry, nope, not a word.
Over here God! Over here! Helllllloooooo God!
Nope, still nothing.
Hey, I just remembered, my neighbors have some goats horses, lamas as well as sheep. Perhaps I should walk down the driveway and ask them for some help?

[Biker]

Do you really care that I am going to hell?

Incredibly wrong question!
Unbelievers ask the wrong questions!
Do YOU really care if YOU are going to hell?

That is an incredibly irrelevant and pointless question. I cannot think of a reason why anyone would not care if they were going to hell, given that they believed that there was any chance at all that the place of eternal torment existed, can you?

So the relevant question is, do you or I really think that hell exists. In order to get a handle on that question, cmass took a look at the typical behavior of those who claim to believe that hell exists and found that their behavior is inconsistent with their stated belief. The natural conclusion is that most of the people who say that they believe in hell, really do not.

I don't think that I will go to hell (except perhaps in my dreams) after I die, since I don't think that hell exists. Now if I had some evidence that hell existed, I might revise that view. But the mere opinions of those who's behaviors belie their stated beliefs does not count as evidence.

That is an incredibly irrelevant and pointless question

Wrong! It is the more relevant and meaningful question! Do you know the answer for yourself? I do, for myself!

cmass took a look at the typical behaviour of those who claim to believe that hell exists and found that their behaviour is inconsistent with their stated belief.

I thought you were a moderator? What camass did was speculate and offer pure conjecture and unsubstantuated opinion on what he thought based on a priori that you most likely share because of it's erroneous bias. Aren't folks supposed to offer a little thing called proof? I thought moderators were supposed to be watching for that not agreeing to it?

I don't think that I will go to hell

Isn't this a personal opinion that is unsupported conjecture?

Now if I had some evidence that hell existed

Hey your unbelieving buddy started the topic, isn't it incumbent on you all to make the case? Now if I had some evidence that hell didn't exist.

Biker

[Biker]

Biker wrote:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27) Are you one of His "sheep"?
Simple, His "sheep" get revelation! Are you one of His "sheep". He, in His grace and mercy and kindness is trying to speak to you! Are you listening?

Perhaps you could listen to the sheep for some further revelation? "Bahhh bahhh. God says invade Iraq....bahhh bahhhh ....and God gays should be persecuted bahhh bahhh."
But no, I do not fancy myself a sheep. And neither you nor I have any evidence sheep are receiving revelations from God. They actually appear to be rather dull animals that follow the flock around. Ironically, people often use a flock of sheep as an analogy for people who blindly follow without question or critical thought. Hmmm..

If God in His kindness is "trying" to speak to me, He is not doing a very good job because I don't hear Him. I am most certainly listening. Why would I NOT listen to Him? Why would it be in my best interest to NOT hear him? This makes no sense whatsoever. As an all powerful God He can most certainly find a way to get in touch with me. After all, even YOU could get in touch with me personally within about 5 minutes of research including my address, phone number and what I look like. God seems rather incapable of this.

I'll tell you what, I'll stop typing for and listen very quietly...........
Hmmmm....
Still listening....
Sorry, nope, not a word.
Over here God! Over here! Helllllloooooo God!
Nope, still nothing.
Hey, I just remembered, my neighbors have some goats horses, lamas as well as sheep. Perhaps I should walk down the driveway and ask them for some help?

God says invade Iraq

Are you implying Christianity invaded Iraq? I thought you had more on the ball than that cmas? Who was it those pesky Catholics? Maybe those liberal protestants? I didn't know either had a standing Army?

and God gays should be persecuted

Are you implying God is persecuting gays? I think your losing it cmas!

neither you nor I have any evidence sheep are receiving revelations from God

This sheep is! But you wouldn't know. Your not of the fold!

Ironically, people often use a flock of sheep as an analogy for people who blindly follow without question or critical thought.

I would characterize it as highly intelligent people who recognize genius, and sovereignty, and royalty, and kindness, and goodness, and love, and who like to hang out together and hear the voice of their Master and who follow Him and have faith in Him. But again you wouldn't know, your not of the fold! It's hard to be critical of perfection!

If God in His kindness is "trying" to speak to me, He is not doing a very good job because I don't hear Him. Still listening....Sorry, nope...Nope, still nothing.

"And the disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?'
And He answered and said to them, 'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand, And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'"

Is it intentional?

Biker

[Biker]

Being a believer and follower and disciple and and servant and bond slave of the Most High God. God speaks to me in dreams and gives me understanding of His Revelatory dreams to me.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me" (John 10:27) Are you one of His "sheep"?

Simple, His "sheep" get revelation! Are you one of His "sheep". He, in His grace and mercy and kindness is trying to speak to you! Are you listening?

This makes clear exactly where you are coming from. Thank you for the “revelation” and for the guidance in what value to assign to what you write, if that were needed.

Is "bond slave of the most high god" something from Ekklesia sect or cult?

Thank you for the "revelation" and for the guidence

Your welcome!
The "ekklesia" is the True Church, the called-out ones. Of which I am!

Biker

[Cmass]

Biker wrote:

Wrong! It is the more relevant and meaningful question!

You are welcome to start a thread with your more meaningful questions and I would be happy to participate in it. For now though, since you are participating in this thread, please address my OP as it was written.

At the expense of veering off topic myself. As for the rest of your comments:

Biker wrote:

Are you implying Christianity invaded Iraq? I thought you had more on the ball than that cmas? Who was it those pesky Catholics? Maybe those liberal protestants? I didn't know either had a standing Army?

Nope. Christianity is an institution, not a person and as such cannot make decisions to go to war. Only people can do that. However, I am implying that a talking sheep with revelations from God may have influenced the decision. (see bottom of page)
(I apologize for not having as much on my ball as you thought)

Are you implying God is persecuting gays?

Nope. Once again, I think the sheep may be responsible through their revelations.

I think your losing it cmas!

And you are not helping me get it back

Cmass wrote:

neither you nor I have any evidence sheep are receiving revelations from God

Biker wrote:

This sheep is! But you wouldn't know. Your not of the fold!

Don't you mean "not of the flock"? Either way, you are correct, I do not appear to be able to hear God or understand the revelations of sheep. Sorry.

Biker wrote:

I would characterize it as highly intelligent people who recognize genius, and sovereignty, and royalty, and kindness, and goodness, and love, and who like to hang out together and hear the voice of their Master and who follow Him and have faith in Him.

People like you I assume?

Biker wrote:

But again you wouldn't know, your not of the fold! It's hard to be critical of perfection!

Right again. Nope I'm not of the fold.

Biker (with help from Bible God) wrote:

"And the disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?'
And He answered and said to them, '......HAS BECOME DULL, AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM etc.. etc...'"

Is it intentional?

Intentional? I suppose so. It was certainly written intentionally by the authors of an ancient book of mythology.
I still can't hear God and I don't think the sheep are getting revelations from God. If God wanted to communicate with me, as an all-powerful, all-knowing Super Being, He could most certainly do so.


Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President 'revealed reasons for war in private meeting'
by Rupert Cornwell
"...President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians...."

[Openmind]

Your welcome!
The "ekklesia" is the True Church, the called-out ones. Of which I am!

Biker

There are more people who believe their church is the true one than you.

I also wonder what Adlemi would have to say - I was under the impression that he is the only one who can actually hear a physical voice of God in his head. Surely he must be the more direct link to God??? You would want to hope nothing you say contradicts anything that he says, Biker.

Quote:
Now if I had some evidence that hell existed

Hey your unbelieving buddy started the topic, isn't it incumbent on you all to make the case? Now if I had some evidence that hell didn't exist.

Give us your evidence it exists - not in dream form though, because what goes on in one person's unconscious mind, especially when dreaming, is not exactly 100% proof in the eyes of others.

Quote:
Are you implying God is persecuting gays?

Yes - read Leviticus. He wants us to stone them. Daresay that is persecution.